Aquarium half gone, giant footers in the sand

Jeff if you could please answer this question for me...I am not knowledgable on the making or design or anything to that affect of a coaster..(i just ride them lol ) But my question is..I dont understand how you can put a part of a coaster in the sand without it causing problems later with shifting..etc.  Are the footers that deep in the sand? Or is there something about it that Im just not getting?  Thanks in advance for answering my question.  No offense anyone..but I would like this to be answered by Jeff he seems to know this stuff like the back of his hand.  :)
-----------------

Thanks for th pictures guys.  I am not going to say anything, because if it is the wrong guess I'll get slammed for it later on.  If I'm right, and I think I am, next year is going to be one of the bests!

-----------------
"Your obssesed w/ that place aren't you?"

I'm not an engineer, but I would guess those foundations go pretty deep, maybe to bedrock.
Even then, the "soil" there really isn't any different than that of the island where Millennium Force turns around. When I was out there during construction, and everything was dug up, it was like walking on the beach.
So I'm sure some engineering type could tell us that the size of the footers aren't that critical, especially if they're not supporting some kind of tall structure.
-----------------
Jeff
Webmaster/GTTP
"As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"

*** This post was edited by Jeff on 10/20/2001. ***

More pictures at The PointOL!!!

For those of you at the park today, did you happen to see anything new in the boneyard?  Track?
-----------------
Steuks!!
VertiGo flights: 4
MF: 28

For those of us that don't know, what is the bone yard?

*** This post was edited by JT Coaster on 10/20/2001. ***

The Bone Yard is an area of the park off by the Mean Streak where different odds and ends are stored. The Yard got famous back in the summer of 1999 when the evantual MF track was spotted there.
-----------------
Brian Z.
Assistant Webmaster
Kennywood Park Unlimited
www.kpunlimited.com

Actually Beeman, now the Bone Yard is by MF Island. They moved it last year due to Light House Point.

------
MF 00: 16
MF 01: 61
MF Total: 77

I think it's right under MF's 3rd hill to SRFalls.  There's a lot of sky ride cars in it which I noticed.

you can get a good look from paddlewheel.
-----------------
DT80: 30 and proud of it!
Member of the O.C.

---

Jeff said:
So I'm sure some engineering type could tell us that the size of the footers aren't that critical, especially if they're not supporting some kind of tall structure.

---

Boy oh boy, he's just dropping hints everywhere isn't he!

-----------------

Well, that also could mean something like a big building too.  A 300 ft coaster may not be thought of as much of a tall structure compared to many buildings.

I was there today and didn't see anything.  Only looked from the train though so couldn't see the far side very well.  Someone riding MF (or PT, etc) could get a better view of the other end...  (I was so psyched, had my camera out & pointed hoping for that first shot of a pile of track... LOL)

Like you could get a real good look going down MF at 92 mph..LMAO
-----------------

I haven't seen the photos, and I really don't need to since I'll be at the park in the morning. But my guess is that the "giant footers" Jeff has been telling us about are not exceptionally large or deep. That is, we're not talking about an enormous 'spread footer' like the ones under the Millennium Force towers. I say that because of the amount of time required for the preparation and completion of the large footers for Power Tower and Millennium Force.

Now, without seeing the photos or site, I don't know what is meant by "giant footers." But a small or low-force construction would not require an enormous spread footer. Or, if the construction uses lots of small footers (as we usually see for wood coasters) then the footers wouldn't need to be terribly big at all.

This is going to be interesting. I shall attempt to forget all the rumors I have heard when I look at the site... :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

That looks awfully big for a woodie footer. Those tend to be concrete poles.

Maybe they are just trying to get a base for lets say a station?

And where would a woddie fit in that area, eh?
-----------------
- VertiCord Crew 2001

More destruction pictures are available here:

http://www.virtualmidway.com/newpics

-------------
VirtualMidway
http://www.virtualmidway.com

*** This post was edited by Gemini on 10/21/2001. ***

Hmm...that not something very tall is really throwing me off a bit. I figure one of two things that this could mean. One, it could be for the station. Or two, it could be for the straight sections on track on either an impulse or a reverse freefall.
-----------------
Let's Go Pens!

I also have a question for Jeff. Is this the only ride being added for next year or will their be more?
-----------------
You are the Weakest Link, Goodbye.

Here's something to get your noodle in a twist...

Compare the shape of the new footers at Cedar Point in THIS photo, To the shape of the footers in the back of THIS photo.  The second photo is an early constuction shot of V2.

-----------------

Interesting point there, FCR, VERY interesting...

-------------
---says Floridaguy, who knows what CP is getting for 2002---

Wow.. it's a rectangular footer... the code has been broken.. ;)

-------------
The most hated man on earth, I guess...
MF total - 476 laps
VertiGo Launches - 79
June 11th, 2001 - Gemini 100

Soooo......what does that mean??

Let's put it this way, the last footer I saw last night (closest to DT) was equal to the size of a standard inground pool if not bigger than that.  I have no idea of what it might mean, but based on all the threads and posts on this subject and clues from Jeff I'm beginning to figure it out.

Where rectangle shaped footers are found, impulses are constucted .
 
We probably need hexegon footers though if they plan on going tera .

*** This post was edited by Joe E. on 10/21/2001. ***

It's amazing how much speculation there can be about a few chunks of concrete in the ground...heck, even Mr. Skyward has an opinion. Last night I was standing behind the ferris wheel looking at the footers and he walked up next to me, looked intently at the beach for a few seconds, grunted, and then walked away. I think the details about the new ride were encoded in his grunt..maybe the FBI can crack it...
-----------------
"Got Skyward?"

While I was waiting for the Meanstreak last night, I did see a fenced area (Boneyard?), with some red coaster cars with little tarps on them.  I could not see too well cause it was dark by then.  I doubt it could be the new coasters cars but you never know. :)

As for Mr. Skyward, I think I might have seen him last night.  I'm not too sure though since there were many people there that day that looked just like him.

-----------------
ENJOY THE REST OF YOUR DAY HERE AT CEDAR POINT...AMERICA'S ROCKIN ROLLER COAST. *CLEAR*

Those are trains from the Gemini..

-------------
The most hated man on earth, I guess...
MF total - 476 laps
VertiGo Launches - 79
June 11th, 2001 - Gemini 100

Why is this years announcment so delayed? Wasn't there a big sign announcing the arrival of MF in August of 99?

What a surprise, they are screwing the employees again.

they announced MF in mid july 1999. i was there that day. the ride ops only had the 'drawing' of what it would look like and where it would be. i dont know if a sign went up later but that day they only had the 'drawing'.

knowing cedar point........they are always looking for ways to get people in. Think about it. All these people going to see the construction. That adds up to money. And I doubt they would do the same thing as millenium force. They are allways looking for new ways.............aren't they?

its called good business decisions.

Its been discussed before that this year's announcement is probbaly late because attendance has been very soft all year.  They didn't want to announce early and give people any reason to "wait until next year."

-----------------
-Matt
2001 Magnum Crew

It also helps that (at least it seems) none of the track for this new ride has arrived yet, unlike with MF...
-----------------
Steuks!!
VertiGo flights: 4
MF: 28

Whos Mr Skyward...?
-----------------

http://www.guidetothepoint.com/thepoint/cpplace/thread.asp?ForumID=1&TopicID=6063
-----------------
Steuks!!
VertiGo flights: 4
MF: 28

I'm guessing it is an impulse. If it were not an impulse, I hope it's something BIG!

-------------
Admission to Cedar Point - $39.00
Waiting in line for Millennium Force - One Hour & 30 Minutes
Getting a front seat ride on Millennium's yellow train at night for the last time - Priceless!

I'm sure it will be great.

-------------
First CP Coaster: Corkscrew
MF Laps: 26
MF Front Seat Laps: 2
I used to be Nick G.

They really couldn't wait any longer to announce MF. Track was spotted, they moved the tracks...should have aroused suspicion if it didn't, they had to start construction in September, they wanted as many people to know they were going to build the biggest damn coaster ever...a whole bunch of reasons.
-------------
MF count: 23

Maybe they are building something really big and don't want to have the same thing as happened with Millenium Force....having their record taken only a couple months later by another park on the other side of the world.  Sure, it's probably not that easy to change a design of a roller coaster when the design is done...but to be able to claim world's tallest is something worth the effort of changing for.

The Rattler is a prime example of that. apparently, the designers added a few feet to it when they heard CP was building Mean Streak.

If this new ride is similar to Superman:TE, and it is going to run along the beach as the photos show, then what is going to go in Oceana's/the aquarium's place? Can we assume that more than one attraction will be added, or will this new ride be a continuous circuit?

Queuing...
-----------------
"I'm on a drinking team with a bowling problem..."

I swear Mr Kinzel said himself filler Rides for 2002! So that means there will atleast be a flat ride. Jeff is there 2 rides or 1 I know Kinzel said Rides.Greg

No S:TE -- think S:UE...look over at the bet making thread for Rideman and ShiveringTim's analysis of the site.

*** This post was edited by CP_bound on 10/22/2001. ***

Possibly he was downplaying the ride so it would be more of a shock to the world.

-----------------
I love fall...
The cool, brisk air...
The brightly colored leaves...
The amusement park announcements...

Actually, the reason why the announcement is late is because they had trouble deciding on a name...

...just like the ride isn't going to be an Intamin, right?...

A few comments,  let's not start worrying about sinking already ala Magnum.  Under the sand is the same soil and bedrock that is under the rest of the park (I'm a geologist not an engineer).  Like someone said.

I think the delay may have been at least in part caused by indecision due to the weak economy, lower attendance etc., possibly they had some other ideas that were bigger but shelved later in the season.  Even a Super Superman shouldn't be that expensive.

I often thought that a good place for filler rides, maybe even a wild mouse would be inside the Mean Streak, they don't need all the que and there's a lot of  room there.

It seems like a lot of you have your hearts set on an impulse.  If so, have you any idea how bad the queue for something like that is going to be?  Espeicially since whatever it is is brand new, the wait will be incredible, probably record-breaking in length.  The queues for Millennium Force is long enough as it is and that bad puppy has three trains.  The supposed impulse only has one right?  My guess is that some people will be standing in line for that thing for four hours during the grand opening.  As much as I'd like to ride the brand new thing, the thought of standing in line for that long actually scares me more than any kind of records they're trying to break with the ride itself.
-----------------
Laugh ye not too hard at my piddly stats.
MF: 3
Magnum: 5
Raptor: 2
I'm working on it, Jeeze!!

 Why are people always worrying about long lines?  The same discussions appeared when MF was being built.  There is a limit to how long most people will wait for a ride.  Lines will not be four hours long (assuming no mechanical problems).  And while I’m confident this new ride will be good, it is not going to draw nearly the same attention as MF.
-----------------
Bob M.

Four hours? That's nothing for a grand opening of a new ride!
-----------------
DIPPIN DOTS!!!111 THEY ROXOR YUR WORLD!!1!

and the 1000s of hours durning winter!

Wade, I'd suspect CP has something up their sleeve to have far greater capacity than the compitition.  I doubt you'll see something with a capacity of less than 1,000 pph.  Whether it's two tracks/stations, a longer train, I don't know, but they'll figure it out so that it has at least a respectable capacity I hope.

-----------------
-Matt
2001 Magnum Crew

4 wide seats would double capacity right there, plus isnt V2's and S:UE trains like 20 cars long?

20*4=80 Thats a lot of people per train and the ride time wouldn't really be that long.  One MF trains hold 36 peeps right?

-----------------
Welcome back Magnum riders how was your ride?

S:UE has 14 cars I believe. So, if you put four across on that it would be 56 people!

Imagine you put a duel 14 car 4 across coaster in! Now that's 112 people per cycle (which is one train for this kind of coaster)! Millennium Force's cycle is 108 people per cycle (for Millennium that's its three trains). The duel coaster would beat it by 4 people! The coaster would pretty much triple the capacity! Now that's a fast moving line and not a long line! That would be cool! :)

-----------------
Force Laps: 416
VertiGo Shots: 32
6/11/01: Gemini 100

*** This post was edited by VertiGo535 on 10/24/2001. ***

...yep CPbound...yep...

I remember reading someone's idea about having a transfer track, with two trains.  It would be similar to MF's, and DT's loading and unloading stations. This would allow the ride ops to load a train while the other is traveling through the circuit, and then switch the trains.

*** This post was edited by Alex Parks on 10/24/2001. ***

V2 & S:UE both have 28 riders/car.  V2 at least has a long line even when the park is uncrowded.  They are definitely low capacity rides.  One way to increase capacity without full dual tracks is to have dual tracks just for loading & unloading.

-- Harley

-----------------
CP fan since 68.

The Only problem I see with Daul tracks on an Impulse is the fact that you go back and forth over that track numerous times. If the joints aren't lined up perfectly, you're in for a treat when you're going that fast and you hit a "bump" the only reason i'm seeing that Mr. Freeze can do it, because it only runs over it once, going 1 way and it's done. when it comes back, it's moving so slow that bumps won't matter. Also, a train going that fast over a joint in 2 track peices, and THAT many cycles a day would probably produce a lot of stress and wear and tear.

Josh

*** This post was edited by Raven-Phile on 10/24/2001. ***

Like I said just make the Train 4 wide it would do the samer thing as a transfer track just much less complicated. 56 peeps on one cycle is still a lot.
-----------------

Raven-Phile, have you ever ridden an Intamin? They probably manufacture the smoothest coasters in the industry. They have already built 3 of this type, and there aren't any complaints of bumpiness, and if the joints don't line up right, it's the fault of the company. They would probably end up sending for another piece of track that was accurate.

-------------
MF count: 23

CP bound, have you ever ridden across the switch (between stations) on Millennium Force?

--Dave Althoff, Jr., who has...

Ka-chunk! Ka-chunk! Ka-chunk! (Ow!) Ka-chunk! ;)

-------------
Jeff
Webmaster/GTTP
"As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"

A friend of mine who knows a thing or two about coasters saw the footers and was guessing that they indicate a racing (two track) coaster.

Why, I don't know.  That was just his guess.

While I'm not sure if the footers are indicating much of anything at this point, they do seem a bit wide for a single track coaster.  But then again, maybe they have to be to distribute the load well enough on the beach.  An interesting thought either way...

I think everyone that is saying, "they should make the trains 4 across" is failing to realize something.  If you make the train 4 across, there is more space in between rows of people most likely as each car has only one row of seats so capacity is not doubled.  In order to navigate those twists, the train has to have some manuverability.  The design on the B&Ms accomplishes this perfectly, but just because they seat four across, does not give them increased capacity over a ride that has two across seating (but more rows of two).  Most B&M's have either 32 or 36 people per train while Magnum and MF also have 36 per train.  The point is that the likelyhood of having a train with 14 or 20 cars with 4 across seating is very slim.
Also, to Logan's point about the footers - someone can correct me if I'm wrong.  Isn't more concrete going to be poured on top of what is there to create the spot that the supports actually attach to?  MF's footers are much larger than those if I'm not mistaken (see http://www.guidetothepoint.com/thepoint/gallery/img.asp?img=h-mfconst76.jpg).
-----------------
-Matt
2001 Magnum Crew

*** This post was edited by MDOmnis on 10/25/2001. ***

Rideman, but that's not meant to be tight fit since it has to transfer...that part of the ride wasn't designed to handle trains going 70 mph.

X-Flihgt has two sides to a loading station.  The track has a little piece that flipps over to allow the other train to move out, then flips back the other way.  At lease in the opening year, it didn't seem too bumpy.

Some coaster site has a video that shows this, but I can't remember it off the top of my head.

-----------------
I love fall...
The cool, brisk air...
The brightly colored leaves...
The amusement park announcements...

But the Intamin Impulse trains are longer to begin with so it could have double the capacity. look at Deja Vu they just added extra seats on the outside of each row to make it four wide, the trains gauge would not need to be any wider, just the seats below, I do not see how maneuverability would be an issue.

-----------------

---

RideMan said:
CP bound, have you ever ridden across the switch (between stations) on Millennium Force?

--Dave Althoff, Jr., who has...

---

I have too, what a sheer thrill!!;)

-----------------
"I'm on a drinking team with a bowling problem..."

---

Magnum Force said:
look at Deja Vu they just added extra seats on the outside of each row to make it four wide, the trains gauge would not need to be any wider, just the seats below, I do not see how maneuverability would be an issue.
-----------------

---

Remember that Déjà vu only sits 32 and has 8 rows of cars (ala some B&M's). Having adding more cars to this may cause execs weight on the ends and cause the train to valley in the cobra roll. Wait it already dose that!
 
The current Impulses have 14 rows/7 cars and sit 28 I believe. I think it won't be that much of a problem to add extra cars like they did with MF (have 9 and it seats 36)
Adding 4 across seats may add to much weight which I think is the real issue. More weight means more power to launch it Launching 72 people and speeds of 100 MPH may be impossible.
 
I would actually prefer 4 across seating in the front or end anyway. It would be good if they had 2 in the front and 2 behind it but set wider so 4 people in essence could be sitting in the front 9 (like the Deja's).. You could turn the cars around on the other end too and create 2 different ride experiences!
 
As for Capacity, 2 sets is the way to go. Here is an Estimate
 
Ride Time 1:15
Load time 45 seconds (I know we can hit that! Gemini crew could do it faster even)
Total per cycle 2:00
Trains Per hour 30
Train sits 36
PPH around 1080 (I will say 1000)
x2 sets = 2000 PPH!
 
This thing could dethrone Raptor as the 2nd highest capacity ride.

--------------
2001 Force-314   Magnum-488
I rode Gemini more than once during a day.

*** This post was edited by Joe E. on 10/25/2001. ***

The Aquarium is ruble now... Just a few odd walls stand. It looks really bad.

--------------
2001 Force- 314  Magnum-498
I rode Gemini more than once during a day.

... And Oceana(Stadium) is not going anywhere, and will be in operation next year.

---------
Andrew Hyde
http://www.experiencethepoint.com

If the ride time's 1:15, that's even less than the ridiculously short ride on Corkscrew which currently holds the record short duration for big kid coasters at 1:31 seconds.  For such a short, trip, it had better be worth all the hype.
-----------------
"Hello, my name is *TIMMY!!*"
Laugh ye not too hard at my piddly stats. MF: 3; Magnum: 5; Raptor: 2
I know a whole lot more than maybe some of you, but probably not.

But don't forget - probably half (I haven't timed it) of Corkscrew's ride is the lift.  Same goes for Magnum and most coasters in the world.  An Impulse has no lift.  Magnum's actual "ride" from the time the train drops off the lift until the time the train enters the safety brakes is about 60 seconds.  MF is about the same according to the Discovery show anyway.
-----------------
-Matt
2001 Magnum Crew

*** This post was edited by MDOmnis on 11/9/2001. ***

Yeah, Millennium's is usually around 60.

Except for that day whan it was 69.8! ;)

-----------------
Force Laps: 424
VertiGo Shots: 32
6/11/01: Gemini 100

It may be short, but S:UE is my favorite ride at SFWoA.
-----------------
"Who needs drugs when you have Cedar Point."
MF 9
S:UE 8

On the topic of construction, does anyone have(or will get) pictures of the rumored track?  Is there even track there?
-----------------

You know, I was just thinking.  If Cedar Point does get an impulse coaster on the beach, won't it have a lot of roll backs?  :)

---

Wade said:
If the ride time's 1:15, that's even less than the ridiculously short ride on Corkscrew which currently holds the record short duration for big kid coasters at 1:31 seconds.  For such a short, trip, it had better be worth all the hype.
-----------------
"Hello, my name is *TIMMY!!*"
Laugh ye not too hard at my piddly stats. MF: 3; Magnum: 5; Raptor: 2
I know a whole lot more than maybe some of you, but probably not.
Not that it really matters that much but python, at bgt which is also a big kid coaster with an inversion or two has a ride duriation of 1:10!

---

*** This post was edited by BreakersBeach on 11/10/2001. ***