What should Geauga Lake build in the future?

Dr Jekyll - You basically said the exact same thing I did, but with a more drawn out explanation. The only difference is in your interpretation of SF "forcing" Sea World to sell. I used that term because Six Flags would not budge on the terms of Sea World's land contract. If they had, I'm guessing Sea World would still be around. So, in that regards, I say that Six Flags "forced" Sea World to sell because, like you pointed out, that prohibited them from aligning that park with all their others.

haltd, don't make me laugh. By all accounts i have heard it was BEC that approaached SFI to sell. There was no pressure from SFI to sell at all. Sure SWO was unable to "build traditional amusement rides". But if the animal concept was so strong why couldn't it stand on its own? Also wouldn't one say that SFI over paid for the property even if they got a whale with it. Who knows what motivated that group, but isn't it obvious that they had no clue on how to handle money and invest it responsibily? After all it was only a couple of years after the Sea World purchase that SFI was taking out loans to pay down INTEREST on loans.

As someone who worked at WOA i can tell you that the ride side was ALWAYS at least twice as busy as the animals, even when they had a decent show schedule.

I can't say why CF decided to comment on the animal topic, but i see it as an attempt to explain the lower than expected numbers, just like blaming the weather or the economy. People always whine and moan about the loss of the marine park, but where were you all when it was open. Because if this many people actually went there then, it would still be there today.

Finally about the animals; they would in no way help this park. The gate addition wouldn't even come close to covering the off season costs of feeding animals and paying for care takers. Don't you believe that CF is smart enough to know weather or not the animals were worth the investment. After all wasn't it CP that Jungle Larry and the Dolphins? Maybe that's a clue too. Animals don't draw. Maybe if that was true then maybe a zoo wouldn't need to be subsidized

Dr. Jekyl, did you work for SWO? Sure sounds like you did. All the old BEC folks couldn't believe that they were loosing money either. Did you see the numbers that they turned over to SFI when they sold? If so then you couldn't possibly claim that they weren't loosing money. Nor that their attendance was dropping steady for several years leading to the sale. The topper is that for the very first time in 2000 GLP out drew Sea World. Shocking isn't it? Especially when one considers that SWO at one time steadily drew fifty percent more than GLP!

And the problem with that quote you like so much is that now you're one of us who's talking... so does that mean you don't know???

What about the other points i made about culture and market strategy? Regardless of the SWO debacle GLP is still a solid concept that could be a stong player in the Ohio entertainment line up.

Many members of my family worked for Sea World over the years (including myself) and many of our family friends worked as contractors for the park's construction efforts for basically the entire life of that park. So, I know Sea World was doing quite well.

You can't really say that Geauga Lake drew more people than Sea World in 2000 because it wasn't Geauga Lake. It was Six Flags - a "new" park. And, like I mentioned before, branding something as NEW will always draw the crowds. But, what was their attendance like in 2001? People in that region were pumped about getting a Six Flags because most had only heard about the parks, never been to one. But, once they experienced it for themselves, they didn't come back. LOL!! I don't blame them either.

Cedar Fair doesn't do animals - that's why they got rid of them all. Sea World DOES do animals. I think its amusing you say that animals don't draw crowds. Last time I checked, Sea World Orlando is expanding left and right. That's a prime example of what Ohio once had, albeit on a much smaller scale. Healthy competition from a "ride" park right across the street was exactly what both sides needed. When that was gone, it was the end.

gener,

The market has changed in the last six years! The region has lost manufacturing jobs, and we are so overtaxed that we can't attract new jobs. This has a major effect on people's discretionary spending, and that, coupled with more competition for fewer dollars, has changed the market, and Geauga Lake needs to adjust.

I DO agree with you on what made the park successful in the past. The two major things being company picnics (definitely the bread and butter of the park, as you put it), and the fact that it was perceived as the affordable park. I remember that as a kid I had the perception that while Cedar Point was a better park (in terms of attractions), Geauga Lake was closer, less expensive, and still a lot of fun.

Anyway, gener, I think I do agree with you on many things. I just think that to try to bring the park back to its former glory, Cedar Fair needs to continue focusing on the water park, and it needs to consolidate the rides side to offer a more streamlined, yet fun experience, that isn't a drain on resources. Remember, at what I consider the park's peak, it had only four roller coasters, but a big water park!

It is past 2AM and I am sleepy, so I apologize if I didn't make any sense.

I was the "friend" during the Cedar Point promotion at GL and was a little disappointed as the day went on.

1. Those were probably some of the worst ride ops I have ever encountered. I used to work at a park with some pretty bad ones too.

2. As the day went on, the more rides went down. The former Road Runner Express never ran. Do they run ride checks in the morning? Or are the rides in that bad of shape?

3. The last time I was at GL was 2001 under the SWO. Did SF put the flats on the Sea World side or did CF? Those should probably be moved to GL. That swing looked sweet, but I was enjoying the WWK at that point. I also noticed that large kids play area. Shouldn't that be in the large kids' area and move those water slides that are in the kids' area over to the WWK.

Btw. I worked for a small Six Flags property for five seasons. Over the course of those years I learned several things about GL/SFO/SWO.

The rides were generally developed by the lowest bidder. This could explain the issues with so many of the rides.

The asphalt issue is a funny one. The former regime at SF loved doing research like they were back in college. They developed a theory that asphalt generates more heat than concrete(very true). Therefore, the guests would buy more drinks and other items from the food stands.

Another theory was if you have more traffic in your guest shops, you will sell more product. That is why you walk through the gidt shop after getting off the Batinator.

I think the former regime concentrated so hard on the HUGE details that they forgot about the small ones(picnics, theming, park services). This of course was always their MO.

If you look at Cedar Point, and with the exception of TTD, their new rides for the year were always up and running earlier than scheduled. Does anyone remember when X-Flight opened? I do, end of June 2001.

I think what CF is doing is what you see in pro sports(take the Browns for instance or even the Bengals). They are trying to take a 4-12 team and create a winner. That's not saying GL or its variety of names was a loser, because it wasn't and is not now. I think CF is going to concentrate on the small details that a regular guest does not see and at the same time make some improvements guests will see(WWK).

It takes time get a team to the Super Bowl or even to the playoffs. I think GL deserves our continued support. If there's issues, go to Guest Services, fill out the paperwork. That is the only way your feedback can get back to the park higher ups. And believe me, I know the GMs read those comments every day.

LOL!!! Asphalt is cheaper to put down. THAT'S why its there. Not to heat up guests to make them buy more drinks. ha ha ha ha!! That's the funniest thing I've read on here in a long time.

Sounds crazy, but it came straight from the former CEO of Six Flags' mouth.

I was thinking after my last post two nights ago and it made me laugh that an arguement i used a few years back (in what i consider a classic battle with Jeff) was used against me in this thread. That point being that SW has turned to amusement rides as a way to suplement their issues with drawing people in just for animals. And that point, animals alone won't do it. It will draw its market and will have little growth. Now does that mean it couldn't be a success? Not from a corporate point of view that demands growth. But it can make some darn good money with the right management. Point is that even if i'm wrong about SWO and dropping attendance and an inability to run in the black (and really does anyone think differently after we all saw what they did to WOA? Because the SWO folks took over and destroyed the foods, retail, games, park services, main gates, entertainmebt departments.)

Point is SWO was doomed to failure as is any marine park in Ohio. The market for sea world is too small and the cost of the animals are too large.

People use SW Orlando to point to it and say, "see? it does work!" But i say, "see? they draw the least of any of the parks in Orlando." And less than other California parks. It was rumored a few back that SW Texas is on the block, but i don't know for sure on that one.

I will say that if one is so inclinded they can find my posts from years back predicting that 1) GLP would be sold by SFI 2)that SFI would be forced to drop other parks. 3)that i thought it would be a good idea to build a waterpark on the sea world site (not that i'm saying that i gave CF the idea, it's just a point that i have some perceptiveness for the amusement industry).

You may have connections with swo haltd, but i lived the merger of those two parks. I've seen information that argues directly with the myth that everything was all honkey dorey in Shamu's kingdom. And i spent ten years working at the lake.

And you say that the attendance isn't a big deal in 2000? It was only the biggest deal in the parks history. Highest attendance in the park's history isn't a big deal? And the only time they out stepped SWO the arch rival across the lake. And if people didn't like the product it's news to me. Season pass sales were at an all time high (even before the announced purchase) and the total season attendance in 2001 was about 2.7 million! About where it should have been for two parks that drew just over three million the previous year. It didn't last long but the public were more than happy with the 2000 product.

But go back and read the trip reports and the posts made on those seasons.

It started strong, but as the season rolled and the marine park was a disappointment, and the frustration over the PACKED ride side mounted the park fell apart under its weight. (Seems strange to me now that people complain that the rides are not crowded enough!!) It was also about this time that the old school GLP staff decided that they had had enough of the likes of their new inept BEC bosses and hit the road. Not to say that the crash was because the people were leaving, it was going to happen no matter who was there. The merger was a complete fiasco and it reflected through the staff to the guests. The new management that season was so out to lunch they couldn't keep the midways clean or food in the warehouse (don't get me onto the great foodservice warehouse debacle). The park was so dirty that the the GM called the "operations" manager to task over the radio. Those there can attest to that one.

Sam you made perfect sense in most of what you said. But i think it important the we (unless you own a company) aren't the people being overtaxed and causing low job creation in Ohio. It's the companies that are overtaxed (in part through the CAT) that are running to frendlier states.

edit:removal of mindless drival.
*** Edited 9/18/2006 5:07:05 PM UTC by gener***

MJF said:
Sounds crazy, but it came straight from the former CEO of Six Flags' mouth.

What's even crazier is that Geauga Lake was all asphalt even before Six Flags came in. They had nothing to do with that.

The rides were generally developed by the lowest bidder. This could explain the issues with so many of the rides.

Somehow I don't think I'd last long in the business world if I said "I'll contract the work to the highest bidder. Did you forget your logic sauce today?

What is it that i said that shoudl insult you so, DrJekyll? Did i insult one of your friends/associates? Or are you appalled that someone from the inside would come here and speak the truth. I know it's not generally accepted as good form to come on these forums and spill the dirty little secrets of the industry, but i have no reason to hold it in at this time.

Like you have indicated you weren't there. Just because someone isn't "full time" doesn't mean that they aren't aware of the actions going on within the organization. Working from January to November as a seasonal has its benefits in gaining information and time with the people who do run the park. The park merger was a highly charged political game that left the park in the hands of illequipt management that was neither Six Flags nor GLP. That killed Geauga Lake.

Sure Six Flags is the ultimate culprate here. Their business practices were flawed on many levels. But the folks at GLP/SFO were able to deal with them and flourish for several years before the merger of the two parks. The issues with corporate mismanagemnet of funds doesn't impact the front lines in the same way that local mismanagement of a parks budget does. Six Flags responsibility here is not recognizing the ineptness of the folks running a second park into the ground.

Alright now i'm done.

I am curious, though, as to what company and (if applicable) what park you work, or have worked for? It may shed some light as to why you can't except or want to deny what happened at SWO and WOA.
*** Edited 9/18/2006 6:33:52 PM UTC by gener***

I completely believe that you both (DrJekyl and gener) could have worked there (I know one of you did...for sure) yet you both could have two completely different takes on what transpired at the park.

Whether or not Sea World was successful prior to the sale is irrelevant. If you look at the other Sea World parks you will see that they were starting to move in a new direction. Atlantis was built in Florida and California. Sea World Texas was building rides. Kraken was built in Orlando. There is no doubt that in all cases Busch decided to go into the rides business...to draw more visitors.

That wasn't an option in Ohio as has been mentioned before. So, there was little room for expansion and they were not permitted to build rides. They were at a point in their history that it was time to start thinking about rebuilding infrastructure. There were discussions of building a new Shamu stadium and other such things. They had to take a hard look before making that investment to see if it was worth it in the long run. Obviously, it wasn't, or they wouldn't have sold.

The people left to manage the new park were not inept. The folks ABOVE those people who were controlling the purse strings WERE the inept ones. And, there are good people running Geauga Lake now but that isn't to say that they have complete control over decisions made. I suspect none of those folks were involved in the initial PR gaffes that came one after another after the Cedar Fair acquisition. I suspect it was one, maybe two or three key people in the company who dictated those blatantly obvious poor decisions. It just goes to show that it takes a lot to be successful.

Sometimes, as was in the case with Busch...it takes pulling the plug on what was a gem of a park in Sea World Aurora. I had the chance to go to Sea World Orlando a couple of weeks ago. It is a huge park and is well maintained but it didn't have half the charm of Sea World Aurora. That was a special park and is sorely missed...at least by me and my family.

First off, I’d like to say that I have never worked at either of the parks, but knew a few seasonal employees from both parks that worked before, during and after SFWOA. Now, I don’t claim to know any of the facts of what happened…but what happened has happened…they all had different ways on handling things, right or wrong, but the only thing we can do now is focus on what can be done to make Geauga lake a great place to visit. Personally, I think it’s improving over all. I’ve never had to wait more than five minutes to ride anything, and there are some great rides. I did have some observations and ideas for the future though….

From my experience in the last 7 years of going…Geauga Lake was and is a local destination more than a vacation destination. Six Flags tried to change that but as with anything new, it only lasted a few years, then the place just got run down and the employee’s culture broke down completely. I believe CF knows they need to clean up the park and bring it back to a local family park. I’m sure they have a master plan in mind for both sides of the park, but unlike SF’s method of do it all now, forget about it for a while, and figure out how to pay for it later, CF has chosen to do it a little at a time and do it right. They started with the water park, with obvious reasons: you can’t have a water park with a couple of slides here and there scattered around a park and expect people to come. They moved everything to a central location with enough for people to enjoy (although they still need to add a little more in the future.) They are giving some attention to the old water park area (the Coi river etc.) but there are still other functioning areas of the park that need more attention. I’m sure 5 years from now, Geauga Lake will be a better organized and a much more appealing park….this kind of transformation doesn’t happen overnight.

I do think CF has neglected the food and more specifically, the loss of its local roots. Yet I do see hope....after going to the 26th annual Oktoberfest, the park had an incredibly different sensation; One that was much more what I would expect from this kind of park. CF should stick with that kind of strategy. Bring in local vendors, get rid of the huge corporate names like Ben and Jerry’s, (Handel’s and Toft’s are much better anyway) and have lower food prices. A summer/fall fair-like atmosphere would be much more appropriate for a small park like this. Give people different special events to come to and they will keep coming back.

This brings me to my second idea…it is a little more far-fetched, but it is something I thought of the first year CF operated the park; The idea of live performances…and it was briefly discussed on this board already. Take the stadium, extend it out over the lake towards the stage and you have one unique venue for concerts and performances. Have a couple decent acts in a year on the off-nights after the water park closes and include admission to the park with the concert ticket. During the day, have some picnic seating with live local acts as entertainment for families and casual orchestra performances on another week night aimed towards elderly and middle-aged couples. These were just a few different things to bring in different demographics, all in an existing building that doesn’t get a whole lot of use.

Adding major rides would increase the cost of keeping up the park, translating into higher ticket prices for a park that is more expensive than it should be already. I do see in the future that small additions are possible, but I don’t see any large coasters in the near future, especially since they are busy trying to clean up years of neglect on some of the other coasters. If you have ridden the Wolf Bobs this year, you will notice that it has had quite a bit of repair work done and is very smooth right now…even with the replacement train straight from the Villain. (Believe it or not….The Villain was a great coaster at one time….perhaps it is next in line for rehab.)

That’s the end of my rant, just some ideas to toss in the mix. I don’t mind constructive criticism.

Geauaga Lake should build a new log flume in the future!

They should have built a new log flume in 1986. Imagine how badly it is needed 20 years later.

The problem with the statement here, "The folks ABOVE those people who were controlling the purse strings WERE the inept ones." Is that it is both true and not completely accurate for the 2001 season. That year we were given (as one would expect) a budget much larger than ever before. But that was blown before the end of June. That is a problem directly created by the department heads and their inability to manage the staff. What compounded the issue is that corporate didn't expect revenues to be as low as they were for the season. It was projected to do better than it did. But even if we hit our numbers the departments spent so far out of line the park wouldn't have been profitable. That is in one way how the "new" (to SFI) management was inept.

Now what happened is a tribute to how Cheif Wahoo's statement is true. In response to the lower than anticipated numbers SFI cut all budgets for the following year which placed more pressure on the over matched management. That again is why the company is to blame for the fall of GLP. But that doesn't mean the players at the park were competent.

prabedia, the idea of live preformances aren't far fetched at all. It is exactly something that would help the park (imo). But is CF willing to bring in the right people to make it happen?

Good points gener. But I'll say this...if my boss gives me a budget of X dollars and then says, "please operate at X capacity"...and I do it....am I responsible when his numbers didn't add up and I ran out of money? I don't think so.

I don't know all of the ins and outs but I suspect that is what happened. I suspect that the on-site management decided to try and operate the way the park should (maximum number of employees in food locations, on coasters, etc). In fact, I recall some of the early season reports back then praising the park. Then, when the numbers started falling short there was an edict from on high that it was time to cut and slash.

Of course, I'm talking in generalities. Certainly there were incompetent folks at Geauga Lake...but I think the competent one's outweighed the incompetent. But, there is no question in my mind that there was extensive incompetence at the top levels of Premier/Six Flags.
*** Edited 9/18/2006 8:40:08 PM UTC by Chief Wahoo***

He didn't care nor did the rest. I would agree that it's fairly obvious that the folks making the decisions for SFI were at best out to lunch and at worst on the take (but that would be a dangerous thing to say now isn't it?) But if those folks were less than honest, it wouldn't suprise me in the least.

What was "offensive, inaccurate and unfair" was the treatment recieved by the folks who had worked for SFI for the previous five seasons, at a park that was very successful financially. Since the marine folks from SWO (and yes i mean them) were placed in all department heads (were applicable) they chose to ignore all possible advantage they could get from a group of people who knew how to run an amusement park, not a marine park. And yes there is a huge difference. I know for one that during my season after the merger i never worked for a group of management more unwilling to hear imput from "below", that lied and mislead whenever it suited them, and had no idea how to make changes to the "plan" as the season unfolded. It may not apply to all, but it did to most full time staff we inherited from BEC. And people wondered why they weren't offered jobs to stay with BEC when the company was sold out.

And before people just jump on me about how i have an axe to grind, well i do. But it isn't for injustices i recieved. While there were things that i had to deal with i would say that my day to day was pretty much cool (since my boss sat on her rear all day reading magazines). I'm basing my ire with that group of "management" on the way they treated other people around me.

English,

Let me let you in on something.....Premier Parks(with GS as the CEO) BOUGHT Six Flags. They then changed the name from Premier Parks to Six Flags. They then renamed Geauga Lake Six Flags Ohio. So, the same regime was there all along.

No Michael, but Vekoma had a lower bid than B&M on the Thunderchicken. Thus awarding the Thunderchicken to Vekoma. The work was mediocre at best and so was the ride. This happened throughout Premier and on in to Six Flags.

And with that same logic, look what our good friends at PKI are dealing with.