What can a trip to KI teach a CP lifer?

Pete said:

cptedsdisciple2 said:
THE GOOD (How KI's guest experience is better) The Point has been a Cedar Fair park since the early eighties. KI only for a few seasons. This shows big time.

That's an interesting comment as the history of Cedar Fair is far different that what you make it seem to be.

Cedar Fair is not a company that purchased CP in the eighties. In the modern era of CP, starting around 1960, there was only one park and one company, Cedar Point Inc. Cedar Point purchased Valleyfair amusement park in 1978. When Cedar Point Inc. changed their business structure to a Limited Partnership, Cedar Fair was formed using the first name of Cedar Point and the last part of Valleyfair. So in essence Cedar Point was always a Cedar Fair park, Cedar Fair was created by the Cedar Point executive team when Cedar Point only owned Valleyfair.

Pete, that's true, but the attempt at an unfriendly corporate takeover in the eighties is what put the management cartel led by Kinzel in place and caused the park to become a publicly traded corporation. I consider Dick Kinzel to be the worst thing to happen to CP. He really should have retired after Magnum. Look at what everyone on this thread seems to be lauding about KI and CP. The stuff Cedar Fair ruined: dark rides, fun house, Western Cruise, Frontier Trail/Lift, train/Boneville, trees, antique cars, pond in Rivertown, Three log rides (One at KI and 2 at CP, Oceana, Jungle Larry, etc. I didn't mean to insinuate that Cedar fair was a different entity. But after Robert Munger passed away and the Cedar Fair Board was established with no way of changing the guard, all of this beloved stuff left.

cptedsdisciple2 said:
I consider Dick Kinzel to be the worst thing to happen to CP.

Then I'd argue you have no idea what you're talking about. For all of Kinzel's faults (and there are some truly significant ones), he really did build CP into a world-renowned park and helped usher in a new era with respect to coasters that many here seem to take for granted.

Look at what everyone on this thread seems to be lauding about KI and CP.

Listening to a bunch of whiny enthusiasts complain about "the good old days" isn't what I'd consider a strong business strategy.

Yes, kings island doesnt have the tourist from michigan, the demographics of kings island isnt one i prefer over CP.

O.J Simpson and Ariel Castro may be world-reknowned as well but that doesn't necessarily make them good. As a business owner, I can attest that listening to your most enthusiastic customer base is indeed a good business strategy. The pre-Ouimet Cedar Fair had an annoying tendency to cater to the 18 year olds who've forgotten their ritalin in Michigan but eventually people do grow up and tastes change. Listening to your most enthusiastic and seasoned supporters is an even better business strategy when they are the ones with the disposable income.

cptedsdisciple2 said:
O.J Simpson and Ariel Castro may be world-reknowned as well but that doesn't necessarily make them good.

That's true. But also totally irrelevant and not in any way helpful to your argument. You know what I meant - which was that Kinzel played a big role in making CP a very successful regional amusement park. Suggesting he's the worst thing to happen to CP is absolutely ignorant.

Listening to your most enthusiastic and seasoned supporters is an even better business strategy when they are the ones with the disposable income.

Except that's not the case here. The most enthusiastic supporters are not the ones spending the most money in the parks, as has been said in several CF quarterly calls as well as referenced countless times in discussions about the park business.

As such, listening to enthusiasts whine about this and that serves little purpose. After all, plenty of those folks will still show up to the parks regardless of how many acres of trees they raze or how many ponds are filled in. Just because your small business strategy works for you doesn't mean it translates universally to all sectors of every industry, especially industries that are orders of magnitude larger than yours.

I was at KI yesterday for the first time... And I was impressed with the overall attitude of the employee's. They seemed a lot more friendly than the majority at Cedar Point. I was even with a CP employee who had the day off and he agreed. The park looks a lot more modern than CP as well. But that isn't necessarily a good thing, because I enjoy the timelessness of Cedar Point, especially down the trail. However I do feel like KI is a bit neglected. I couldn't find a clean bathroom in the park, and I felt it was a bit bare in sections... Especially around the tower and the whole Drop Tower area.

cptedsdisciple2 said:
Look at what everyone on this thread seems to be lauding about KI and CP. The stuff Cedar Fair ruined: dark rides, fun house, Western Cruise, Frontier Trail/Lift, train/Boneville, trees, antique cars, pond in Rivertown, Three log rides (One at KI and 2 at CP, Oceana, Jungle Larry, etc.

I don't understand why these things and coasters cannot coexist like they do in other parks like Kennywood, Knoebels, Silver Dollar City, etc. and why Cedar Fair doesn't seem to think so either.

When it comes down to it, the price they are commanding now, including food, doesn't justify what is left for us to ride when the lines for the big coasters would take up the entire day, plus we KNOW what was tossed out, many unique things to Cedar Point.

When I recently read that Cedar Fair closed down Dorney Park's Old Mill/Journey to the Center of the Earth as soon as they bought it after years of being there, it just solidified for me their mentality about "other attractions".

I'm not buying the maintenance and safety excuses anymore when other parks keep these things going for years or put these things in. Still can't believe they took out the Pirate Ride, including the ship out front of it- and didn't replace it with anything.

What did I just recently read, that when Cedar Fair took over GL, they raised ticket prices, food prices, ride heights, and added the $15 parking fee and removed rides. No wonder people didn't show up.

I know CP is drawing big numbers this year with Gatekeeper and the economy picking back up again. But I've become frustrated this first time passes season with variety outside of high thrill rides there. I've seen the live shows for the first time in decades and that says something. Kings Island was a welcome change that felt like you had a well-rounded experience. I like coasters, too, but it can't be all about adrenalin rushes. Or is it?

3snoH un=l said:
What did I just recently read, that when Cedar Fair took over GL, they raised ticket prices, food prices, ride heights, and added the $15 parking fee and removed rides. No wonder people didn't show up.

You read a bad source then. When Cedar Fair took over Geauga Lake, prices were cut 1/3. There was always a parking fee.

3snoH un=l said:
The Italian job is a very unique and fun ride

Fun, perhaps. Unique, definitely not. There are multiple installations of the exact same ride.

coolkid said:[/i

You read a bad source then. When Cedar Fair took over Geauga Lake, prices were cut 1/3. There was always a parking fee.

Maybe so, I've been also reading threads on the wayback machine of Coasterbuzz regarding Geauga Lake, including the one from May of the year it closed. Many saw the writing on the wall then, many talked about the pricing which wasn't disputed but I don't know because I wasn't there. I have brought these things up because they are partial questions from me in understanding. Regardless, there is a blight on the Cedar Fair portfolio and it's really a shame.

cptedsdisciple2 said:
[The stuff Cedar Fair ruined: dark rides, fun house, Western Cruise, Frontier Trail/Lift, train/Boneville, trees, antique cars, pond in Rivertown, Three log rides (One at KI and 2 at CP, Oceana, Jungle Larry, etc. I didn't mean to insinuate that Cedar fair was a different entity. But after Robert Munger passed away and the Cedar Fair Board was established with no way of changing the guard, all of this beloved stuff left.

While I think Kinzel did many good things, I totally agree with you that the park is not as well rounded and family friendly as it once was. I think Ouimet gets it though, and we will see CP getting a wider variety of attractions along with very important resort improvements. I'm very hopeful that project 2014 will be that industry leading dark ride that was mentioned in the conference call.

Oh my...

SteveH said:
...these parks were once in fierce competition with each other...

...don't ever use CP, because it's the favorite child that has never had to bow to accept any of the policy or operational procedure changes imposed... no matter even if the other park has a better solution.

...Sure. They were in fierce competition. For the vacation-goers in Columbus. Otherwise, no.

Safe to say Cedar Point didn't draw in a lot of customers from Kentucky, West Virginia or Indiana, and Kings Island didn't bring in many of the residents of Michigan or western Pennsylvania.

The primary markets for KI and CP then and now overlap only slightly. (I mean, you do understand that they're as far away from each other as they can be and still be in the same state, don't you?)

...Seriously? Do you really, truly believe that Cedar Fair's management allows its flagship park to not follow corporate policies? Seriously? You seem to have gotten your ideas of how corporations work by watching too many soap operas.

3snoH un=l said:
When I recently read that Cedar Fair closed down Dorney Park's Old Mill/Journey to the Center of the Earth as soon as they bought it after years of being there, it just solidified for me their mentality about "other attractions".

You do realize that Cedar Fair bought the park over twenty years ago? You do realize that Cedar Fair today has different people in executive positions, not the least of whom would be Matt Quimet? You do realize that solidifying your opinion about CF mentality based on actions twenty years out of date isn't really fair?

Yes, to your questions except the last one. What Oimet does remains to be seen but there is some hope with him coming from Disney that he injects something worthwhile into the park besides record breaking coasters.

ETA: Okay, this is awesome, and apparently ordered by Oimet. So I will correct myself, and hope something like this comes our way to Ohio.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbkdSYniqIc

I seriously said that CP has never had to change it's ways - even after an acquisition has had a better solution to a problem. It is always the new purchase that has to adapt, and that is why so many of the parks like KI have lost their original personalities and ideas.

Why CF refuses to reap the intellectual benefits of why these parks were successful before they were part of the chain is what confuses us. Rather than take these ideas and improve from the bottom up, it's always the top down that wins.

CP really hasn't had to change it's ways, and it's been overall successful

KI has some things we could learn from, however the atmosphere, demographic, and park personality are greatly different. CP is about the rides and the thrills, KI is about a park experience as a whole..It's even preached this way from PR, employees, ect.

Well. I just want to chime in here based on my weekend in KI. I arrived on Friday (8/23) and after getting settled in at my campsite, headed over to KI. I have to say for a first timer, the layout of the park was confusing! With CP being my home park, well, I was a little overwhelmed at KI. Rhe differences I saw were mainly with the employees at the park. VERY nice and helpful, even one of the game operators saw that I was lost and tried to help me find my way! Impressive. Now,on to the ride operators. Specifically Windseeker. This is where CP shines in ride ops efficiency. The ride ops at KI are SLOW. They really are laid back here. And not once did I hear anyone in line complain about this. So this must be normal to them. But I prefer CP's efficiency on getting riders ready to ride. VERY streamlined. And then there's the rides. Well. No comparison there. CP wins HANDS DOWN. I really miss CP. So much so that when I get back, that's where I'm headed. I expect this week at CP to basically be lots of walk ons to rides. Hopefully.

Ride op procedures do suck at KI, I've chimed in there plenty of other times.

For example as you put it on windseeker, there isn't a dedicated op in controls, so the guy working controls for that rotation has to go back to controls just to unlock/lock in the event of a walk of shame, adjustment, lose article act. So everytime this happens to any of the seats, it's a pain. Also, there are less ops dedicated to plat, ect. Operations at CP are get them on safetly, and efficiently and keep it moving as best as possible. If KI had CP ride ops, that park would FLOW, and be just incredible, plus this would help their lower capacity rides shine too (their monster crew, don't get me started lol). It's funny when even my girlfriend notices this difference and she works at KI lmao