Top Thrill's Operational Status 04'

Panman, I'll give it a shot...

From what I have been able to piece together, it seems that the control computer makes changes in the way the launch works, based on the performance of the ride. I don't know if they change the system pressure, the fluid volume in the accumulators, the regulator from the accumulators to the motors, the valve timing, or something completely different. But they adjust *something* which controls the speed of the launch. The launch track is...er...several hundred feet long. The launch system is capable of getting the train up to 120 MPH in a hurry, the train speed is monitored all the way down the launch track, and when the train hits the target speed, the launch system starts dumping fluid back to the reservoir past, instead of through, the launch motors. So if the launch is sending the train too fast, it gets a shorter, quicker launch. But that shorter launch is taken at a higher force, and that is not desirable. So when that happens, the control system makes adjustments so that the launch will require the entire length of the launch track to hit top speed. But if it overcompensates, the train won't reach the necessary top speed, resulting in a rollback. So the next time, the system will send the train a little faster.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Just a little update from my trip.

Monday the 24th it was down most of the day due to high winds.. but we saw it testing while riding WT and ran over there, waited about 45 minutes.

Tuesday the 25th - got to the park at 9:00, but it was down because it was raining. We rode MF 4 times, then saw Dragster testing, so we ran over there. It was pretty consistent on Tuesday. TUESDAY WAS THE ABSOLUTE BEST DAY I'VE EVER HAD. When we headed over to dragster at about 6:00, the wait was 10 minutes tops. It was very, very reliable. We rode it a good 4 times. (MF,RAPTOR, and EVERYTHING else was a walk-on, only line in the park was for dragster.) We had freeway stamps for Dragster and MF, but they were useless as the line wasn't even at the merge point.

Wednesday the 26th - Most reliable i've ever seen it. It was open when we ran to it at 9 AM. We were on first launch of the day. No rollbacks at all. It was amazing. 1 minute intervals it seemed like. We rode it 4 times by 10:30, including a good 30 minute wait for the front row.

All in all, Dragster was running pretty much flawless on Wednesday. *** Edited 5/27/2004 2:50:52 AM UTC by alabama hick***

Rideman -

I'll buy completely that there is a need for a compensatory mechanism from launch to launch, and that such a mechanism exists.

BUT that does not explain why they have needed to run the thing for extended periods at a little over half-capacity on the 4 occasions I've been to the park this year.

It also does not explain why at 124mph, an empty/half-full/full train will sometimes roll back and sometimes clear the hill. Somewhere in the system there is an unresolved issue.

Call me Doubting Thomas if you like, but I want to see it go for days and days without a problem before I'll stand in a 1 to 2 hour line that might end up being 4 hours or more.

Steve

It's hard to say exactly what causes a rollback, there are so many factors to take into consideration. If there is a train that is going 124mph (like Panman suggested) that rollsback, you could probably assume that the wind had something to do with that. Keep in mind that 420 feet up in the air with no barriers will account for a lot of wind that is constantly changing direction.

One reason for partially loading the trains is that the wheels need to be warmed up enough to send full trains and make it over the tower. When June-August is here and its consistently warm/hot outside the wheels will take less time to warm up and partially loaded trains will most likely be seen less and less.

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Panman said:

It also does not explain why at 124mph, an empty/half-full/full train will sometimes roll back and sometimes clear the hill. Somewhere in the system there is an unresolved issue.

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I feel your pain. Last year I challeneged anyone to explain why they wouldn't fully load a train, using science, and no one could do it. The only thing anyone could say was, "Well, it doesn't rollback when they do it, so it must be right."

That's still nonsense if you ask me. If it can't make it over the top, launch it faster!

The wind at 420ft is going to be much more stable than it is at ground level. In a past life I flew kites, and have seen this to be true time and again, so I find it hard to buy "The wind changed so it rolled back" explanation.

Whether the train is fully laden or not does not affect the velocity it needs to clear the hill. It is true that there will be some small correction for this due to friction, but I hasten to stress that it is a *small* correction.

Somewhere in the system there is a gremlin of some kind that from time to time absorbs a significant portion of the train's energy, AFTER the release point. Until this is identified and fixed, the system is not going to be 100% reliable.

I'm tending towards blaming it on the sway in the track - it seems to me that when there is a violent fish-tailing effect on the train at the release point, there is a higher chance of it not clearing the hill. (This sway is distinct from the basic resonances of the supporting structure - I'm talking specifically about large side-to-side movement of the train at or very close to the release point).

For a while one Sunday afternoon I was able to predict with fair accuracy whether or not the train would roll back, pause at the top, or clear the hill easily based solely on the amount of sway.

The energy to produce that sway must come from somewhere, and the only thing moving is the train.

I will buy 100% that a half laden train (with the back 4 rows empty) is subject to different sway than a fully laden train, due to the weight distribution.

I'd be curious to see what would happen if they blocked off every other row in a half-laden state rather than just blocking off the back 4 rows, and if this would affect the rollback situation.

I agree with Jeff, though - crank that sucker up!

I was at the park yesterday. The intervals on the ride was terrible. Sometimes it was up to 3 minutes. I there just last week and the ride was getting less than a minute. It was even running 5 trains. You were sitting in the station just waiting for almost 3 minutes. It was the worst state I've seen the ride operating. The ride was up and down a lot too.

What's the reason for these long intervals? A pair of trains went out. The first train launched after a minute of waiting at the launch track. It went straight to the unload station and people got out. The train was already unloaded and the second train was still waiting to launch. This couldn't have been block problems because there never was a delay going into the unload, load stations, or the staging area. Just the launch took forever. The catch car is still reseting right away isn't it? That was the whole thing that shut the ride down last June.

That's what I was thinking. (The catch car) I remember last year, that was the problem.

This year, It was looking like the problem was fixed. But, now that you are talking about it, that is a problem that is impossible for the ride ops to fix. It may need to start going through some mechanical labor, if it is indeed the problem.

The really sad thing is, that even if the ride ops are perfect, the intervals and capacity will be pathetic.

I just wanted to comment that Dragster ran very good today (5/30) The only time it went down that I know of was due to the rain about 7 pm which made my freeway stamp useless.

well sometimes your freeway stamp isnt useless sometimes they are nice and let you use it...i went may 22nd and it was down 3-8pm cause of winds...and we had a stamp for 5-6 and they guy said we can go thru....and it was about 9pm.

But it rained the rest of the night. That's what I mean't. It was no biggie though because there was nothing they could do about it.

damien said:

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Yes the smoke effect is still there

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Damien, you said the smoke effect is still there, but I went to the park on Saturday and it wasn't. *** Edited 5/31/2004 3:23:20 PM UTC by dertsanchez***

I saw them loading 8/18 seats a week ago. I don’t know the science behind the whole thing, but I think that’s pretty pathetic. If the ride can only be ran with full seating in conditions like when the wind is less that 15 MPH and the temperature is more than 70 (guesstimate), there is something wrong with that. When they built the thing did they know it’s at a place which is windy or cool 90% of the time? ;).

I mean, how many times have we seen EVERY row loaded, last year even when the ride was working properly. It’s more of a rarity than common practice.

TTD ran half trains more times than not when I was there a couple of weeks ago (5/13-15). At least they have identified the issue and have implemented a temporary (hopefully) fix.

MrScott

Dertsanchez, when I was there a couple of weeks ago, I'm pretty sure the smoke was running.

Damien

They were loading all 18 5/19 and 5/28. I haven't seen the smoke yet after riding 4 times in May 03', Oct 03', and two times in May 04'. Is this effect not working like they want it to. It looks cool when I see pictures of it.

Was Dragster's intervals good again on 5/30? Like I said the intervals were very, very long 5/28. The revving of the engine had to restart two times before the brakes droped and launched every train just about. It took 45 minutes for freeway and there was no breakdowns or rollbacks. Once I was in the station I had 4 pairs of people ahead of me. That took at least 15 minutes.

The crew was very good though. They got the trains loaded and ready to go right away. Only they had to wait maybe a minute and a half to leave the station. I have to say I was very disapointed in the operation of the ride. They had better intervals last Memorial Day when the ride still had all those problems. The week before the ride was even working better. If they're fixing the ride then the people here are right "IF IT ISN'T BROKEN DON'T FIX IT!!" Now that I got over my anger the ride is still fun as ever before. That launch is amazing.

Mr Scott -

That is my point EXACTLY. Running half-full trains is not a FIX, its a work-around, and a bad one at that.

And Joe E hit it on the head too - running full trains these days seems to be the exception not the norm.

They could be excused for running half-full trains last year perhaps, but not this year. They had a long, COLD offseason to get it to work properly. Heck, if the temperature is the issue, get it to work at 32, and it'll be just fine at 65.

Let's face it, folks, TTD is Cedar Point's X. It's a great concept, and a superb ride when it works. But what they designed and what they built are two different things.

CP should have the Intamin tech-guys nailed to the ride until it works with the same kind of reliability that we have come to know and love park for.

Steve

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Gomez said:

The revving of the engine had to restart two times before the brakes droped and launched every train just about.

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Does the revving have anything to do with the actual timing of the launch? When I was there a few times it would do the whole revving thing then it would stop then just launch.

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Sean_N said:

Does the revving have anything to do with the actual timing of the launch?

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Of course it does, that and the smoke effects. Why do you think it's been down so much lately. ;)

Went up to the park yesterday and TTD ran very well. The one minute intervals were very nice to see and there was no one at the park (which surprised me considering that it was memorial day). I waited 35min at around 1 and got a freeway stamp afterwords for 7 to 8. It was also VERY windy yesterday, but I didn't see a rollback the whole day (TTD did go down for technical difficulties for awhile at about 4, but that was the only time I saw it go down for the day). Anyways, hats off to TTD and crew, they did a great job yesterday!