Top Speed !!!

Yes, the equations for terminal velocity rely on surface area and such...

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Dragster "Top Thrills": 0
World's first strata-coaster!

Ryan -- wherever humans go, roaches follow. It's a fact of life. Don't be so sure there aren't any at Cedar Point, either. The fact that SFMM got a Notice for them is bad, yes, but they'll take care of it.

Anyway, back on topic...

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--Greg
My Home
MF count: 54

I was just trying to get a sentance with butt and pucker in it :)
As applies to the feeling you get on the way down TTD.

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I'm not an old fogey, I'm just an old coaster rider..

The drop has got to faster. The launch could be faster cause of the hydrolic system but the drop has to be faster.
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Could TTD be any taller?
Terminal velocity has an exact formula with given variables. A sky diver in the position [don't know the exact name but it's limbs spread out with arched back] terminal velocity is around 120 MPH. If they go into a nose dive they can reach speeds of over 200 MPH because ot the reduced surface area and the same weight.

A roller coaster has a relitivly small amount of drag from wind and otherwise, but a very high weight also. A long train like Millennium Force could reach speeds of will over 120 MPH given a very long drop.

A paper roller coaster can be extremely acurate. When a real roller coaster is manufactured, the parts are made close to specs but not exact. The amount of time and effort spend on getting better parts is dependant on the tolerances.. Much more time is going to be spent where tolerances are very smaal. When the trains are moving very fast means that any error in design will be magnifed when compared to a slower section. More time and money won't be spend ot sections with high tolerancly such as station track because it's a waste of money.

Off-topic response to GregLeg1:

Being a food service person I can tell you that cockroaches is a big deal and no, they are not present wherever humans are. They need a food supply (carbohydrates). Basically if you've got a cockroach problem, you've got some major sanitation issues (exposed food, rotting walls, "danger-zone" conditions), hence their closure.

And no, there are not any cockroaches at Cedar Point that threaten our foods as those stands are kept in excellent shape. I should probably mention I've worked at both Six Flags and CP as an area supervisor, so I've got a little first hand experience. It's a well-known fact in the industry that SF isn't doing so hot and they think that by cutting corners here and there they'll make up some of the money, so really this should come as no surprise. In terms of cleanliness and thoroughness CP runs circles around SF's best.

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'02, '03 Foods Area Sup (area 3)

I too was a supervisor at CP in foods in 2001, and I can remember vividly the expectations we were held to. It was nothing like the fast-food jobs I held in high school. I would choose a CP food stand over any Six Flags stand any day...hands down.

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MANTIS ROCKS 2002 & 2003

It's good to hear that Cedar Point takes such precautions. When I said "cockroaches follow humans", I meant that as a general rule. Where do people congregate? Cities. Where do roaches congregate? Cities. Living in a city, you get used to keeping everything well-sealed. The same rules apply to food prep areas -- obviously there was a lapse at SFMM. Gross? Yes. Fact of life? Yes. Even the best restaraunts in big cities can have problems. SFMM took care of it, and life goes on.

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--Greg
My Home
MF count: 54

The drop WILL BE SLOWER. Regardless of what you think, conservation of energy demands it. The equation for kinetic energy is 1/2mV^2, and for potential energy is mGH, where m is the mass, and can safely be ignored in the equation, v is the velocity, g is the gravitational constant, and h is the height.

Ignoring friction, the sums of the potential and kinetic energies must be equal:

1/2mV(1)^2 + mGH(1) = 1/2mV(2)^2 +mgH(2)

Where:

V(1) = the initial velocity, provided by the hydraulics
H(1) = the height of the hill
V(2) = the velocity at the bottom of the hill
H(2) = the hill's drop


First, we cancel out the m's, and set the H(1) to equal H(2):

1/2V(1)^2 + mGH = 1/2V(2)^2 +mgH

subtract mGH from both sides, and then multiply by 2:

V(1)^2 = V(2)^2

or, V(1) = V(2)

Thus, if the height of the drop is the same (which for all intents and purposes, it is) then the velocities will AT MOST be equal at the bottom of the hill. There is no other place to get any force from.

Friction slows things down as the speed is turned into heat and sound. It will always subtract from speed, never add to it, so the speed at the end of the hill will be slower than at the beginning.

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Come on people, this poetry's not going to appreciate itself!
*** This post was edited by tremor 4/22/2003 11:13:39 AM ***

As for terminal Velocity, without knowing the exact cross-sectional area of drag coefficient, I can't figure it out for sure, but the general equation is:

V = sqrt( 2W / Cd*r*A)

where:

V = terminal velocity
W = weight of the car
Cd = drag coefficient
r = density of the air
A = cross-sectional area

The weight of the car, as mentioned in a previous thread, is 15 tons, or 13,608 Kg. The drag coefficient I estimated at .4, which is a little worse than a car. The cross sectional area I also estimated as 2 meters squared, and the density of air at sea level is 1.225 Kg/m^3. Plug all those numbers into the above equation and we end up with a velocity of 166m/s, which is 372 mph. I don't think we'll be reaching terminal velocity on this ride any time soon :)

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Come on people, this poetry's not going to appreciate itself!

It can be said simply as this.

Without another launch, the train's speed will obviously decrease due to friction. By how much.. i do not know.

Just be happy with the fact that if it is launched at 120, you will still likely be going 100+ right before the brakes. That 20 mph will make absolutely no difference.

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Ryan McCanimal
Webmaster of Thrillgallery.com
"eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

You guys take all the fun out of riding coasters! I pray that I am never standing in line near any of you, because I would definately fall asleep before I got a chance to ride. Could you be more boring?
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tambo
I could've derived those equations for you.

And science is NOT boring, thanks.

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Come on people, this poetry's not going to appreciate itself!


tambo said:
You guys take all the fun out of riding coasters! I pray that I am never standing in line near any of you, because I would definately fall asleep before I got a chance to ride. Could you be more boring?
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tambo

What kind of response is that? If someone would have said, "Just trust me." I'm sure none of us would care what they had to say. But when they actually work out the equations so that we see that they are correct it adds onto the subject matter.

Isn't the basis of message boards to have a discussion over a certain subject. Not explaining one's reasoning counteracts the whole purpose for a message board.

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...and the most anticipated event of summer 2003 is...

The Matrix: Reloaded!

I don't care, most people wouldn't know if the calculations were correct or not. It's still boring stuff.
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tambo
If it's boring you, don't read it.

How do you think rides are designed in the first place? It's not like someone took out their K*nex set, put some pieces together and said, "Hey! This one looks good... Let's make one like this out of real steel!" There's actually science involved, and the fact that people on these boards understand it is pretty impressive. It's cool to know how something works.

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~Lee~

Group Sales ATL '01
Group Sales TL '02
Park Admissions Zone 5 Supervisor '03
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"The greatest leaders don't take credit for their actions; they don't have to."


tambo said:
It's still boring stuff.

Bah.

Science makes things more fun, not less fun. We would not have gotten very far as a society without scientific curiosity. Yay science, I say.

I don't understand any of what they are saying, but it is far from boring. It is cool to see how things work in our lives, the more I read on here the more I understand what goes into these coasters.
God bless science and physics! they make coasters possibel, ya know. thanks for putting things into perspective, tremor. i knew the train ould be going slower at the bottom from good ol' science, and the backing of those crazy equations. and tambo, tisk tisk. i for one would want to stand next to this person in line for a roller coaster because it was pass the tim, and make the queue a bit more interesting.

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you are minimally exceptional...
***This post was edited by rogue kielbasa 5/4/2003 10:02:47 AM***

Regarding the discussion of friction and its effects: If we look at Millennium Force as an example, its total length is 6595 feet. If we subtract the length of the last hill, the brake run, the unload/load areas, and the first hill (up and down) we are left with approximately 5500 feet of track. When MF hits the bottom of the first hill it is going 93 MPH. 5500 feet later (when passing the Photo building), it is going about 65 MPH, or about 28 MPH slower - due to friction.

Also, and expert may want to comment on this, but it is my belief that a loaded train will maintain its speed better than an empty train, for this reason: the additional weight (e.g. mass) will conserve more energy than that lost due to the (slightly) greater friction (increased rolling resistance of the tires). So given two trains, the fully loaded one will tend to maintain its speed while the empty one will peter out sooner. (Feather vs bowling ball - which one falls faster

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