The Great Debate

The curved track shown in the second and third pictures in one of the first posts in this thread show some interesting things though that would support the NON L-TH-B theory. The radius on those is huge, and my first thought was, well they're not done with the pullouts yet, just give them some time and you'll see those pieces there, but, the "running side" of the rails is on the outside. The only places I could see these pieces going is either the top hat is going to start curving in pretty quickly after you hit vertical (which would explain the tight radius top-piece) or on a bunny hill. They're certainly not for an overbank (unless we're going to turn on the outside of the overbank instead of the inside? ;) ) but either the top hat is going to be more of a triangular structure, rather than squared off, or that's a bunny hill.

Also remember that the top hat pieces are a new addition this week, so there are still parts of this ride that have yet to arrive (such as the launch track?), and the brake run pieces still look odd to me. Maybe it's that I haven't done enough research on Xcelerator, but from what I remember from this weekend, the "brake fins" look a lot more like this track (link to rcdb.com, Xcelerator) which is on the launch which can be seen in this pic (link to rcdb.com, Xcelerator) than they do any other brake track I've seen on an Intamin (which again, I'll admit I'm limited in my Intamin experiences ... mainly Millie and the two Ohio Impulses and what I've seen on rcbd.com). Now I thought I remembered Jeff basically confirming that the launch would be on the midway side, but these pictures sort of discount that in my mind (yes I know its probably suicide to doubt Jeff, but still ...)

Could it still be L-TH-B with the points that I've brought up? Yes, but I think a combination of not CP's style and just way too many unanswered questions or ambiguous answers lead me to believe there will be at least one element beyond L-TH-B.

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1. Kumba 2. Millie 3. Mantis 4. Lightning Racer 5. Wicked Twister (front seat)
"The key to a happy life is moderation" -- Jon Stewart

I think the people in this debate pretty much summed up the little facts pointing towards this ride being more than just a L-TH-B configuration. I tend to agree with them beyond desire for a more fulfilling ride alone. For as long as I remember Cedar Point has been pretty tradtional towards thrill rides. When everyone was building looping coasters, they built Magnum. When other parks were doing simulators, they did Disaster Transport. When they decided to add to thier collection of looping coasters, they build Raptor, a well-rounded, larger version of the already successful Batman the Ride. They did the same thing with Wicked Twister, jumping into a new ride concept early but only after finding complete satisfaction in Superman: Ultimate Escape. I do think this was a filler ride, however. Cedar Point wants to make the top of the list when it comes to their roller coasters. Magnum, Raptor, and Millennium Force have probably been their most successful rides in drawing attention to the park because of thier fulling rides from start to finish. There was concideration taken into every one of these coasters. I cannot recall Magic Mountain's Superman getting recognition for anything other then it's height and launch technology. Cedar Point is not a technology flaunting park. They are about thrills and ratings before the statistics get built up. I cannot see why they would want to put so much money into a ride that is nothing more than a record breaker. I also find it hard to believe they would want to use up such a wonderful plot of land to make way for such a limiting ride. This is more than just acres. It's about using up potential areas for new rides to be located along that midway. This ride will clearly stretch along that entire midway, leaving little option to plan further rides for that section in the park. You also have to put the ride movement expenses into concideration. If this is just a L-TH-B ride, why not just put it in a dead area of the park, like where they are most likely moving Chaos and Troika? I'm sure they could have figured something out for that section of the park. They have left us hanging for quite awhile as well as closed rides before the end of season and announced the closing of a flat ride. Why would they build all this up for us to be let down? I doubt this will be a long ride, but I think we could at least expect something similar to Excellorator, however you spell it. Cedar Point may love records, but they want to make as much money off their investments as possible. At the potential cost of this attraction, I doubt they would want to substitute ratings for records. I say this ride looks a lot like a L-TH-B settup, but it's just too early to make assumptions.

I don't really think that this coaster is going to be a L-TH-B coaster in its entirety.

Actually, I have a strong feeling that this thing is going to have the big major launch and then stop and the bottom, and launch again with a lower speed but more elements.

The reason that I think this is that when you look at pics of Xcelerator, the brake run is very very short compared to that of the new ride.

As you can see in this picture, the brake run is not only very short, its also quite tilted. The reason for this is that the brakes stop it completely with magnets (The magnets don't just stop working after a certain speed) and when the train is ready to advance, the magnetic fins can lower with hydraulics like in that picture. The area for the rumored brake run on Project 2003 is extremely long! Much much longer than that on Xcelerator. This leads me to believe that there will be something else after the short brake run. This also explains the lack of supports for a turn around back to the beginnning.

That fact about the lack of supports for a return to the "station area" alone should make some who believe in the L-TH-B theory feel a little uneasy. My best bet is that this coaster is going to hit the brakes to slow it down to a crawl and then perform some other method to gain speed and continue on a full course. The only reason I believe this is that the brake run is not angled (at least it doesn't seem so) and therefore, the ride won't be able to ensure a full stopping and then move forward. No, they cannot just put many friction wheels because if the ride needs to be stopped immeadiately, the extra "lowerable" brakes like on Xcelerator would not be possible with the friction wheels as well, and since there is not a significant slant on that area of track, it won't move. The reason they have those lowerable brakes is that is the section in which the trains come to a full stop, or so I have come to understand. Without the ability for the trains to make it back to the station in a timely fastion, this ride will have low PPH rates, at least high PPH rates that CP is known for.

Ok, I think I am done now!

Actually, to go back to PittDesigner's comments about Xcelerator, those fins on the launch track are brake fins. They are there in case the train can't make it over the hill. It coan coast back into the station. However, you can be sure now that the launch is on the midway side, because the fins on the lagoon side are on the dual rail track, instead of on the quad rail launch track that is used on Xcelerator.

I also want to thank PLayerPunk89 for starting one of the first useful posts, where people can actually voice their opinion, and state the facts without everyone getting up tight.

I believe that this ride will be more than an L-TH-B. The cameras are both pointed to the same spot. I think that the brake fins will be used as a trim section to slow the train, because it would be hard to keep the g forces low on any element while traveling 100+ mph. Just my take on the situation.
*** This post was edited by UR_coaster 10/22/2002 7:39:51 PM ***

Are you sure that the brake fins for Xcelerator's brake run lower? I know the brake fins for the launch run do, but I thought the brake fins for the brake run are just like the ones we have now at CP...

Wow, for those keeping score at home, that was the 100,000th post on CP Place, according the main page. So what's my prize? ;)

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"Meh."
Wicked twists: 11
Danger: Hgih Voltage!
*** This post was edited by Majin Heero 10/22/2002 7:41:06 PM ***

I say this is going to be more than a L-TH-B roller coaster. Rember it takes nine months to build a roller coaster. If the started in Sept. it will be done in like mid-May of next year, if they started in Aug. it will be done in April of next year. This rides esposed to open next Season for Cedarpoint

Says who? I'm sorry, but that's the most unintelligent thing I've ever seen said on these boards. It's not a baby for Pete's sake! From your theory Millennium Force took 9 months, but so did Wildcat. That's absolutely ascenine!

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- John
"Guest 234: Watching construction of S:TR" - RCT2 (God, I love that game)

Well for my two cents in all of this. I, as everyone else here feels, hope that this will be more than just a L-TH-B type of coaster. It wouldn't be CP style to put something so short in.

I mean, when we think about it, every record breaking coaster that CP has invested in, in the last decade, it has been something of value and sustance. A ride that has many good elements. For this to only be a L-TH-B would not be something CP would create. (unless the fact someone from SF parks drugged the CEO of CF and told him to build a weak ride like they do or something)

So hopefully, yes I really, really hope that this will be a ride more than 30 seconds long.

But I will say this, as I will hate to say it; when I was at the park this past Sunday and looking at the ride and the parts remaining, I just don't know if it will be anything more.

Why? Well when I was the PT, twice, looking at the layout of the ride and the ride area, if the ride were to slow down in the brake area, why such a long brake area? If there were going to be more elements on the ride, I can see a few brake sections, not the long row that we see.

Also when I was on the Magnum and on the Gemini, looking at the ride sections in the parking lot, there have seemed to be less and less parts for the ride. I do know that more will be coming because no of us have seen any of the launch sections yet. But talking about supports and columns, I can only see those items just for the main support, nothing else that could be part of anther support for a different part of the ride.

Last but not least, even if the ride were to go through the long brake section and make a turn for another element of the ride, were would they put the track? You have the ID, CS, and the PT in the way to put track? (unless they put some tight turn like they did the MF)

I don't know. Will the ride be cool? Yes. Will I be the first to ride? I hope, if I'm there before you all. Will I like it? Yes. Will I be disappointed if it's only a L-TH-B? Yes. Will I stop coming to the park? Never, because CP will always be the best America's RollerCoast in the World.

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If your not having fun, what are you having?

im with the more than L-TH-B. i also want to respond to andys comment about price. The year cedar point put in wicked twister, they spend a lot less than they "usually" do as far as rides are concerned per year. They saved money. I heard that they had some 50 million+ for 2003 alone to work with.

Just something i noticed that could probably be really important...Here goes...

http://www.virtualmidway.com/mystery/attraction380.jpg

The twist on the down side twists to the left...so technically it would be an inverted tophat, but we all know it wont be inveterted including me.

if this were to twist again, that would be kind of impossible because there is a tower there and if it were to twist around the supports holding the track would have to extend and would be kind of unstable... So i was wondering IF after the launch and the tophat it would continue somehwere and then comeback and meet up with the other side of the tower.

this might be a little confusing, but i just dont see a way how it could twist all the way around with the tower so close.

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- Dennis

If it followed that twist, it could go around so that the riders are facing the support. You have to remember that those supports are like 4-5 feet thick. It may look like a pretty small support, but it's really huge. If it then follows that twist around, it would pull a 270. It would also be possible for it to twist as ti came out of the tophat to the left, and then pull a 360 to the right...I doubt that it will do this because it might require too much vertical track, but it would be wicked as hell!

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June 28th: LocoBazooka Tour (Sevendust headlining)
July 11th: Korn, Puddle of Mudd, and Deadsy

Big D- The twist on the other side is going outward if you look at a few of those other pictures (I'm not sure which ones off hand) so it's not going to be just purely an inverted tophat. So to recap: we have one side twisting in, one side twisting out. This is going to be a really unique experience at the top of this thing.

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- John
"Guest 234: Watching construction of S:TR" - RCT2 (God, I love that game)

I didnt say it was going to be an inverted tophat....i know it will be a regular tophat.

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- Dennis

I apoligize. I misread your post, Big D.
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- John
"Guest 234: Watching construction of S:TR" - RCT2 (God, I love that game)

My home park is PCW, we haven't gotten a new coaster in 7 years(I don't count the fly as an adult coaster). I don't care either way, just the rush of going 120 miles would be exhilerating.

Look at the tower and the supports running up to it. On the side closet to the midway there is cement footers for the station track. After that, there are the supports runing up to the tower for the launch track. Looking on the other side, you'll notice there is a change from rectangle, to flat track, and the brake run on a downward angle simular to the launch. With this, you can see the track will go to the tower with launch track, and come from it with brake track.

From what I've seen, there is not a possiblity of any more than a L TH B layout. My theory is well supported by this picture. http://www.virtualmidway.com/mystery/attraction423.jpg

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House of Tomorrow: Only technology makes live worth living

Looking at the above picture I was wondering what the inside supports are for. Is it possible that we could see track in there. If so that dissmisses the L-TH-B theory, either that or i've just made a dumba#& of myself.

you gotta remember that they put track up with the copper fins right after the pull-out. so i don't know if this will be the end of the ride or if it will slow the train down prior to its next element. "oh the possibilities" is a complicated ride at this time.

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Canadian Rider said:
My home park is PCW, we haven't gotten a new coaster in 7 years(I don't count the fly as an adult coaster). I don't care either way, just the rush of going 120 miles would be exhilerating.

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Same here. PCW is the oppsosite of CP. Great supply of flat rides, but weak in coasters. I'd rather spend one day at CP then a whole summer at PCW.

Still, those copper fin brakes are quite powerful, and even one section of those would reduce the speed a lot. In other words, i don't think they're the kind of brakes that trim speed very easily--its kind of 'all or nothing' with those. I think the brake run after the pullout will be the final (and only, excluding the launch fins that pop up) brake run of the ride.
*** This post was edited by mk468zz 10/22/2002 10:43:07 PM ***