The good old days

What do you call Disaster Transport?

There aren't enough expletives in the English language to describe that mess.

Sparking my initial post was one thing:

1) "crazily priced" : Cedar Point is extremely affordable for what it is. No, I am not opening the "food pricing" can of worms here, but I do not think that anyone can honestly say that, all things considered, Cedar Point is somehow "crazily priced".

And now we have the classic "family friendly" debate ongoing.

I'll give you Camp Snoopy (nice) and the ice show but the "major" attractions that have been put in do no target the family and, in fact, they demolished a family attraction (log flume) to make way for a thrill ride.

Very true, but don't you think Cedar Point is even more aware of this than you are? I would bet that the next couple years will see family-oriented attractions installed.

And then guess what?

Everyone will be complaining about that too!

I dont know Chief W. I have never once thought of Cedar Point as being anything even remotely close to a Disney park. I see them as two very, very different experiences. Busch parks seem to walk the line between a Disney and Cedar Point, which is interesting.

They aren't close to a Disney park. I completely agree. But, they should aspire to close the gap...particularly when they are trying to offer a resort experience instead of a park experience.

Teens and young adults aren't the folks who will be filling the hotel rooms. Much of the growth at Cedar Point over the past decade is attributable to out of park revenue, particularly in the hotels. There is an opportunity to expand on that growth with additions to Breakers Express, renovations to Breakers, etc but the demand is obviously not there or they would have done it by now.

I absolutely think Cedar Point is aware of this whole notion. They have said as much for the past five years or so. They are certainly paying it lip service but I don't see any action in that regard short of lowering the price for a child ticket. (Although the significant increases in food prices seem to offset the lower price for the Jr. ticket.)

When I took my going-on-5 year old to the park we went on all of the car rides multiple times, the train, the sky ride and then for the most part I watched him in Kiddy Kingdom and Camp Snoopy. For that I paid for a full priced adult ticket and paid the $11 and change for his ticket. My wife and toddler stayed home b/c it would have been silly for her to come.

When I went to Disney the four of us had a great time and there were only a handful of things we had to pass up. And, we stayed a couple of nights.

I THINK that is what Cedar Fair would like to do with Cedar Point. I just don't see them making any progress to that end. It is almost as if they are afraid to add something that isn't a "thrill" ride.
*** Edited 8/2/2007 3:58:15 PM UTC by Chief Wahoo***

Cedar Point is already more of a family park than most parks in the world. There are plenty of things to do for every member of the family from toddler to grandparent. While Disney is a great experience because you can do almost every ride with every member of the family, one could also consider it watered down (as many do). Cedar Point on the other hand has rides for everyone - hell they even have a beach. Here you can take the little ones, the teens, the parents and the old folks. People wanting thrill don't usually get it at Disney. When they do on the couple of "thrill rides" they do have, the rest of the day is spent on shows or "boring" rides. So, I would argue that CP has more for the entire family to do. If you have to split up here and there, so be it.

But, Cedar Point does not need to have every ride be cushy and cute. They have a great balance already. That's the main reason it's the ONLY park I travel to every single year regardless of where I am in the world.

Also, I'd also argue that families actually have LESS money to spend in the park than single people. It's a well-known fact that single people have higher levels of disposable income - where better to spend it than at a theme park? Sure, you're getting maybe four people with a family. But, that family is also more likely to bring a picnic or not eat as much because whatever they spend is multiplied by four.

Tim, do you have kids? I'm guessing not because I can ASSURE you I spend more in the park with my family of four than a teen couple does. First there is the food. You don't see many...if any...picnic lunchers at the Disney parks and I suspect there aren't a great percentage of families hoofing it to the parking lot at Cedar Point.

Second, there is NO way I'm getting out of Disney without a Mickey plush or out of CP without a Snoopy plush. Then, where as a single person I can just go from line to line all day long with hardly a time to take a breath my kids aren't going to let me pass up the Lemon Chill, Cotton Candy, cutesy games, etc.

I don't think Cedar Point has to have every ride be "cushy or cute". Show me one ride built in the past TWO decades that would qualify for that description that isn't in Camp Snoopy. And then, how many of those can be ridden by the "family"?

Cedar Point is (or at least for the past 20 years has been) about thrills. I'm not denying it nor and I saying those thrills aren't great. They are. But, in the past twenty years the attendance hasn't really grown. (In fact, isn't Raptor year still the largest on record...and wasn't that in '94?) So, the big thrill rides haven't translated into increased attendance and I suspect the demographics of the folks riding those big thrill rides aren't spending the kind of money inside the park that the families would be.

Disney has struck the balance of family vs thrill. So too has Universal, to a degree. Dollywood seems to be striking that balance well. Cedar Point/Fair needs to take heed in my opinion. And, once again, they themselves have said that is what they want to do. They just aren't doing it...yet.

You can't really compare the Disney parks to Cedar Point though. Disney has more of a draw because of it's resort status and the unbelievable saturation of "Disney Disney Disney" in kid's brains. They advertise globally, have internationally recognized characters that have been around for GENERATIONS and the experience you get there (more so in the past) is second to nothing else in the world (as far as parks go). So, I don't think it's accurate at all to say Disney is successful because everyone in the family can ride something together. Sure, that's part of it, but the whole fact of what Disney is makes it successful. The same could be said about Universal.

The characters at Cedar Point are there just to entertain, they're not the draw in the first place. The majority of people going to Cedar Point aren't there because some kid said, "Mommy, can we go to Cedar Point because I want to see Snoopy". On the other hand, millions of little kids say, "Mommy, I want to go see Mickey (or Buzz, Nemo, etc...)." That is a HUGE reason why Disney is so popular.

I totally agree that families spend money at the park. Plus, your family is most likely spending more in total than a single person or even a group of friends. But, are they spending more per person? I'm not convinced that's true. I also doubt Cedar Point has any data supporting or denying that fact because they don't poll enough of their guests like Disney does. Maybe they do, but it would surprise me.

My point was rather that a single person HAS more money to spend on average than a family of four - per person. But, they're not necessarily tapping into that. All the people on here with families bitch about the food prices. I think the food prices are fine. I also don't mind eating all my meals in the park because it's just me. So, if myself and three friends go, I have a feeling we're spending more per person than the same four people that are a family. Families have way more expenses than single people. So, they have to budget. Single people are more likely to "blow money" at a park because it's a vacation and fun. Plus, they don't have to worry about their five kids starving next month because they blew all their money trying to win a stuffed animal or a Wii.

Cedar Point is struggling to get money from the families. So, I'm just saying they should be concentrating on people that statistically have more disposable income to spend.

I have plenty of money to spend in the parks. That ain't the issue. The issue is I don't have enough reasons to take my entire family to the park, particularly more than once a season.

Cedar Point has been around longer than Disney. Generations longer. But, I will concede that their global awareness is untouchable.

But, I will also tell you that prior to 1984 Disney did almost NO marketing. That was one of the many things Eisner exploited, and exploited well. When they do market, they are marketing a family experience.

And, I think you underestimate the popularity of the Peanuts characters. I would argue that Cedar Fair hasn't utilized them to their potential. Are you telling me there is no way to do a Peanuts dark ride? I will tell you that my kid knows Snoopy just as well as he knows Mickey. In fact, my kid looks forward to the various Peanuts specials that come on at Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc. They are a part of the fabric of American entertainment. Cedar Fair can't tap into that outside of a Camp Snoopy and an ice show?

Are you and your friends staying on site? Because for those folks that do stay onsite you would have to concede that they are spending more per person/day than you and your friends are. And again, it is those overnight stays that are going to be where future growth at Cedar Point comes from. The biggest coasters in the world have not driven attendance up.

This is a bit of a "chicken or the egg" argument. Are families not coming so Cedar Point is concentrating on the non-family guest? Or are families not coming because Cedar Point isn't focusing on the family guests?

Listen, I understand that my argument is not going to be well received on a special interest website visited predominantly by the very people that Cedar Point HAS been catering to over the past two decades. But, I have gone from being the young enthusiast that you all are to the older enthusiast with children in those two decades. I'm going to the Disney parks just as often (if not more so) now that I have kids and I'm not visiting the traditional parks as often. But, that doesn't mean I don't want to. The Disney empire is growing on my dime.

^^Yes, it's true that the younger crowd has more dispoable income to spend (until they move out of mom & dads basement), but we spend way more on our kids than we ever would have for ourselves. I'll deny myself the 3.50 (?) snow cone, but if my son says he's hot...there I am in line.

And us being Peanuts fans, we actually used to take the boys with the motivation to see Snoppy. But I get your point

I personally feel that there is plenty for younger kids. The stuff that's missing to me are enough rides that the whole family can enjoy together. Mid range rides that don't spin the crap out of you, drench you, or take you too far or too fast.

Edit: Chief got in before me :)

*** Edited 8/2/2007 6:00:11 PM UTC by Good Grief...***

Very well said Tim, both this last post, and the previous one.

I totally agree that a single person will spend more money (per person) than than the family of four (per person). And even if I don't spend as much on one trip, I'll spend more throughout the entire season, because I'm probably going to the park more often than the family of four (again because of more "disposable" income).

Randi, I don't think Tim was necessarily meaning the "younger" single crowd, but single adults as well. Sure I'd spend money on the kids if I had them, but I don't, so I can spend that money on me! :)

No matter which way Cedar Point goes (more thrills, or more family rides) some people won't be happy.

"You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time"

*** Edited 8/2/2007 6:00:02 PM UTC by Mark Small***

Ok, I'm Dick Kinzel counting the piles of money on my desk at the end of each night.

Tim spent $60 in the park today. (Thanks Tim!)

wahoo's family of four spent $40/person today...or (calculator please...) $80.

Which is better? (Knowing Dick...I'm sure he is happy with both of us...but you get the idea.)

Good Grief said it well: " I personally feel that there is plenty for younger kids. The stuff that's missing to me are enough rides that the whole family can enjoy together. Mid range rides that don't spin the crap out of you, drench you, or take you too far or too fast."

Mark, you said, "no matter which way Cedar Point goes...some people won't be happy." Well, they've only gone one way for a number of years now, haven't they?

And, a good number of the multiple visits are on Season Passes. The more those folks come the lower the per cap on their visits. I DO think Cedar Fair realizes this as they made significant changes to the season pass program at the Paramount parks so they are no longer giving away the gate.

^ - Chief, 40 per person in a family of 4 is 160.

Exactly, and I'm sure Kinzel would be much happier with 4 Tims (spending a total of $240), than the family of four that only spent $160.

Well, if I WERE Dick Kinzel I would have a darn good accountant! When I am at an amusement park I often times just forget about the two kids. Duh!

Mark, I'm just telling you as a guy closing in on 40 who used to be a young guy that spent MANY summer days at amusment parks...I spend WAY more money now than I ever did. It isn't even a contest. I'm sure most families are the same.

And again, let's not discount the resort aspect of Cedar Point where my family of four, in addition to the in park spending, could also be laying down $200/night (another $50/person) for accommodations. Could you and your 3 buddies stay the night? Sure (though I would question the sleeping arrangments). But, I can assure you that the VAST majority of folks staying at the resorts are families.

Cedar Point is an excellent amusement park. They are working towards becoming an excellent resort. I'm one of their prime potential customers and I'm telling them they need to address the family element more in the park before I start coming multiple times.

*** Edited 8/2/2007 6:28:31 PM UTC by Chief Wahoo***

In my opinion, (I don't like stating my opinions as fact)

Cedar Point will never become the full-fledged resort that it wants to be, or like here on Pointbuzz, people claim it to be. It's not. Lighthouse Point was great, but the resorts could use some serious attention, not to mention the total lack of any on point nightlife. Wow, so you've got Hot summer whatever, its crap, and has been since it first began.

The point of a resort is to keep people there, and keep their money in-resort, not send them to downtown Sandusky after-hours or even during park hours just to avoid spending a fortune on food, not to mention sending them off-point to have some out-of-park fun. Disney has all of these corners covered, and if Cedar Point continues on it's current trend, it will never be a resort.

Let's talk those family focused rides. When was the last family ride installed? It's not Maverick, which is still ironically being touted as a ride for the whole family, it's not MaXair, or Dragster. Yeah, they have an ice show, but Halloweekends? Come on, for what, five or six weekends out of a year, you can't use that as a way to attract kids to the park.

Cedar Point is focused on thrills, and their focus on family and keeping money in the park for a family who's spending the whole weekend is becoming blurred, and when you've got a pricing department that focuses on per cap spending and not seeing the overall picture, you've got issues.

It's all a very tricky equation for sure. I'm actually surprised I don't see people standing at the exit of the park with hand held computers taking surveys of guests. How old are you, where'd you come from, where'd you stay, how'd you like the park, did you like the prices, what do you think you spent today, etc... Last time I was at Disneyland, I took one of these surveys. They had some great questions on there and I'm positive that's why Disney does so well. They KNOW every single thing they can about their guests.

I went to CP last summer with 9 friends. We all stayed on property. None of us paid kid's admission. We ate every meal on property. We bought on-ride photos. I think some people played games. We bought souvenirs. We drove more cars than were permitted at the resort, so we had to pay parking for excess cars. We pumped a TON of money into the resort that weekend.

While families spend a lot of money as well, kid's pay THREE AND A HALF times less in admission than adults. So, that kid has to eat a TON of food to even get up to the price of admission that me and my three friends just paid to enter the park. Plus, groups of single friends tend to drive in multiple cars. Families tend to come in one car. Again, the park is making more money off of the single groups. At least that's what it looks like to me.

I don't doubt the popularity of Peanuts characters. But, I just don't see the majority of people going to CP FOR the characters like they do at Disney. Also, I have to disagree strongly that Disney did no marketing before 1984. Can you say "Wonderful World of Disney", "Very Merry Christmas Parade", etc... I even remember commercials on TV when I was a little kid. I was always bugging my parents to go after I saw these commercials. Ever since the inception of Disneyland, they have been marketing. Maybe not traditionally, but they have been. You'd also be interested to know whenever there is an event televised from Walt Disney World (parade, golf tournament, etc...) reservations at the resort spike dramatically. During the Christmas parade they get more reservations than any other day.

Is Cedar Point missing the opportunity to put in some family friendly rides, sure. I won't argue with that. But, I also don't think they should be focusing only on that. I'd love to see a flume ride, dark ride, or fun spinning coaster everyone can ride. I also hope they continue to build thrilling coasters for the older set.

Like someone else said, CP needs to find a way to get people to WANT to spend money. If they're only offering the same old stuff every other park (or mall/movie theatre/baseball stadium) is offering, where's the incentive for people to spend? If you offer great things people can ONLY get at Cedar Point, they're more likely to spend money on it because they can't get it anywhere else. They could also keep the prices where they are since they're offering something unique. You offer an "overpriced" hamburger and fries worse than people can get at the worst fast food restaurant, why would people buy more than they have to? They wouldn't. That's what CP needs to fix.

Competitiion breeds excellence.

Take a look at what's going on at hotels/resorts along Milan Road. Wisconsin Dells is going to get a real challenge for the midwest US/Canada family entertainment dollar real soon because of Sandusky development.

Hopefully room rates at the indoor water park facilities will drop due to competition by the big players coming into the picture

Step back and think about the potential of the whole area....(& get rid of that smell that's out there at times!!! on Milan Rd.)

I think that it is difficult to compare a Disney park to an amusement/ theme park on the same lines of CP, KI, Hershey etc. Heck, the entire Disney empire started out as a cartoon mouse. The only comparison that I could even try to make between Disney and CP are the "Snoopy" rooms at HB, and the character breakfast in the coffee house at HB.

On another note: I have a 6 and a 4- year old. We has a fantastic time at CP riding all the kiddie rides and doing all the family things. It actually took up a majority of the day- the wife and I did not need the "parent swap" till after dinner. And with the exception of KI, CP was the best "family" time we had (it is hard for my kids to relate to Snoopy when all they watch is Nick). And I am comparing CP to: BGE, Hershey, Dollywood, HW and KD, which had a significant different atmosphere than KI.

I really think what happens is people have a different mindset when they go to CP, only because the park is known more for their coasters than anything else. The kids unintenionally tend to be pushed to the side because all they can see from the moment they enter are the big coasters, which also happen to be the rides they cannot get on, but they see mommy, daddy, and big brother get on them. Then comes the kiddie rides, and they are bummed at how small they are.

CPboy77 said:

Pete said:
There is a lot of family/kids stuff at CP, but they need a dark ride and a flume ride to round out the family offerings.

What do you call Disaster Transport?

Disaster Transport is not a dark ride. A dark ride is a themed experience where you ride in slow moving cars to experience a story or theme. At CP, think San Franscisco Earthquake and Pirate Ride from seasons past.

I think a point should be made that while CP does have a lot of family stuff, the public perception of CP is that it is a "coaster park". Not the type of perception that will draw a large number of families who like to go to Disney.

Think back to the CP of the early 80's. You could watch a dolphin show (gone), see live animal shows and exhibits (gone), experience an earthquake (gone), rub elbows with pirates (gone), go on a Western Cruise (the present ride does not come close), get lightly splashed by two family flume rides (gone), see a crafts festival (gone), walk through a fun house (gone), watch an IMAX movie (gone), see glass blowing and a blacksmith working (don't think they do that anymore), watch the hobo band and beach band (gone)....

The list can probably include a few more things. Yes CP has a lot of family things now, mainly kids rides. But maybe the family things they have now are the wrong kind of things, and many of the right things were removed. Food for thought....

Pete, good points about the significant decrease in "family" stuff since the 80s. I hadn't really started to jot all my thoughts down as far as what isn't there anymore. It is a longer list than I thought.

Tim, I'm telling you that you are the exception, not the rule when it comes to the demographics of the folks staying at the resorts. I'm glad you do and like them...but you are not the typical resort guest.

As for Disney marketing you are incorrect. I've read just about every Disney book out there, worked for the company and attended a series of seminars. Eisner and Wells looked at Marketing as one of the first areas they could improve when they took over to boost attendance and drive growth...particularly in Florida. In fact, the old guard before Eisner actually looked down on marketing rather pompously with a "we are DISNEY...we don't need to market" mentality.

In fact, Eisner's wife is often credited with providing the spark for the first significant commercial Disney did post-'84. The story goes that she had some guests over for dinner who were travelling and she asked one of them what they had intended to do next on their trip. The answer: "We're going to Disneyworld." Others say that story is exaggerated but the bottom line is that it was the first significant commercial for a Disney park (yes...they had the World of Disney on tv but outside of the Disneyland show of the 50s it was mostly to promote their movies).

Most of the events you mention: parades, golf tournaments, grand openings, all are post-'84 concepts.

I agree with everything Browntggrr is saying. Yes, it is natural to compare CP to the parks you mention and of course CP is considered the COASTER park. That's the problem. They obviously want to be more than that but have not yet taken the steps to get to the next level. The only way to do that is to set some lofty goals and by striving to emulate the idea of Disney (not duplicate it) I think they can get there. But, they can't get there if they don't make a point to try.

Now that Pete describes it that way, I guess I'm swayed. It's not just a marketing issue.

But maybe (some of*) the family things they have now are the wrong kind of things, and many of the right things were removed. Food for thought....(added thought & emphasis by myself)

Exactly how I feel. I can see why they decided to remove them years back. Treads come & go & maybe they wanted to appear progressive. But they have gone overboard in the thrill realm to the extent they have partly ostracized the family market. IMO, now is the time to bring back those dark rides, a flume, & maybe even an improved version of a funhouse. That way they can balance the park out. I do not feel it has a good balance at all. We have season passes & my 11 year old son never wants to go. He hasn't transitioned to thrill rides, but is obviously to old for all the kiddie stuff.

It's pretty bad when the mom is constantly begging the kids "Come on!! I wanna go to CP!!" ;)

P.S. Jeff beat me by 28 seconds! I think they do still have the glass blowing thing :)

*** Edited 8/3/2007 3:31:29 PM UTC by Good Grief...***