The "bottom" line...?

Im close to not fitting... I have about 1 inch of slack, and I dread every moment that I may not be able to ride... Im a tall guy at about 6' 7" 215lbs, CCMR is the only ride I have trouble with

I actually see CP's changing policies as proactive rather than reactive. Problems have occured in other parks, and yes it is true that often times these problems can be blamed on "stupidity", but regardless the cause, Cedar Point, and the companies that design their rides, do not want ANY of their patrons injured, regardless of their IQ.

That being said, your complaint, Tank, is truly falling on deaf ears.

If you cannot fit on any of the rides you mentioned, you are a lot larger than the "average bear". Unfortunately, we live in a country where there "average bear" is way too big.

I would hope that the person who cannot fit would instead look at themselves and say "gosh, maybe something needs changed here".

I hope Maverick offers you no problems, Tank, but if it does, I would encourage you to talk with someone who is willing to help you.

Maverick has OTSR. If you can't fit in those, go on a diet. I know if I was ever turned away from a ride at CP, I'd take a long hard look in the mirror and make some serious changes in my life.

Doesn't the seatbelt on the IntaRide OTSRs attach to the restraint? Sorta like Cork??

Well, without getting into specifics, and long philosophical discussions about lifestyles, past and present, let's just say that I've lost well over 330lb and am still counting down. So, I don't think anyone can accuse me of "not trying".

That said, the issue of restraints and seat sizes seems strange and arbitrary at times. There are a great many rides I fit comfortably and well on. There are some I just don't fit on, and I wonder why the engineering on these rides has to be as tight as it is. I also strongly feel that the test seats should reflect the real-world. In other words, if you fit at the test, you should fit on the ride. In addition, I definitely have never subjected myself, the ride-ops, or any fellow riders to the discomfort, embarrassment or inconvenience of trying to fit myself into a ride when I shouldn't be trying to fit.

Further, I understand that safety is always the paramount issue, and it should be. However, I simply do not understand making restrictive changes to well-proven ride systems, based on knee-jerk reactions to isolated incidents, to the overall detriment of some of your ridership.

Examples: Magnum XL-200, a great, and comfortable ride for me. Comfy seats, well-fitted belts. Blue Streak, early 1980's, when I was considerably larger, I was able to ride due to the bench seat design and belt configuration. Blue Streak 2006, now unable to ride except by extreme stapling. Reason? New molded plastic inserts. Same reason keeps me from bothering to try Mean Streak at all. Millenium Force? Came within an inch on the belt 2 years ago, got my hopes up. Last year, after having lost even more weight, I got caught by the great seat belt contraction. Top Thrill Dragster? Fit in restraints fairly well, but seat and car configuration compress my 6'7" frame too much for me to be able to ride. I can't maintain the body position it requires without pain. Raptor? Curved armrests dig directly into hip bones. Believe me, at the place where those rests hit, there's nothing there but bone. Ditto for Power Tower seats. Corkscrew? Used to love that ride. I'd sit in the front seat of the front car, slide forward to get my neck down onto the headrest, and my body would float in zero-g. Now? New, silly, crotch belts on a 25+ year old coaster. No more inversions for good ol' Tank. Iron Dragon, on the other hand, is like sitting on a living room sofa for me.

It's not always purely a "weight" issue, either. It's a question of over all dimensions, and proportions. I am extremely tall. I have very long legs, and a long torso. Bad combination when trying to scrunch into some of the seat geometry that is being used these days. Unfortunately, when you do scrunch like that, it has a tendency to magnify any extra girth you may actually have.

So yeah, some of it is me, but some of it is them. And yeah, I realize that complaints like this fall on deaf ears most of the time, and there are a great many people who would say that my problems are my own and I shouldn't blame Cedar Point, or the ride manufacturers. I guess, in essence, I'm not really blaming them, just venting a bit of coaster-fan frustration. Isn't that what this forum is here for, among other things? Like I said before, it means just that many more Magnum walk-on rides for me.

You are 100% right Tank. There have been so many times where I've seen people that definately aren't overweight but that have wider hips than most people, and since the belts on MF and TTD come up right over the hips, that is a big problem, especially for women, as the men can usually muscle the belt into position with a lot of effort. I've seen it on both rides, where people that look as if they would be too large to ride, but because of their body form, manage to fit. Dieting won't solve everyone's problems, in fact, I would say that it would only solve a minority of the problem.

TANK........I'm sorry if I offended you. Your explanation was perfect and well said.

I honestly feel bad for you not being able to ride ALL the rides at CP.

Once again, sorry.

Thank you Tank & Blue Streak.... I am a 26 yr old woman who is "a little overweight" but I carry it evenly (thighs, hips, etc) & have also had children (therefore the "hips" issue)
I fit on TTD comfortably (in only the first row) but have had to do the "walk of shame" several times on MF,
(take June 4th, 2006 for example) I sat down in the test seat & got the belt buckled with minimal difficulty, and with More than the required amount of slack, mind you... and then waited through the line ...
(meanwhile calling my dad and telling him that after 5 years, I was gonna Finally ride MF...) only to get up to the platform, sit down, and still have almost 1.5 inches to go until the belt actually Reaches the blasted buckle... So along came the dreaded, embarrassing, humiliating (call it what you will) "Walk of Shame"
That's only one example, but you get the picture.
So, I tried again a few weeks ago (test seat) no luck.... seems the belt had been re-routed over the bars along-side the seat exactly as they were on the ride itself.... Now if they'd only done that in the First place....
(end mini-rant)

Thats why I think its naive and arrogant to say much of what has been said in this thread about those who cannot ride certain rides at CP. Many people who cannot ride certain rides do have weight issues. But many do not. Some people are simply larger framed and carry weight differently than others.

And the point of my original post is that CP (and other parks) have to do something about this issue. How do you increase your attendance by building more rides that will not accomodate larger riders at a time when your customers are getting larger? And how do you keep your capacity high when you repeatedly have to give riders time to try to fasten restraints, unlock restraints to allow them off and then reset the restraints?

Tank said:
let's just say that I've lost well over 330lb and am still counting down. So, I don't think anyone can accuse me of "not trying".

Wow, I'm actually really impressed. That must have taken alot of discipline. Good for you man.

Tank...I am completely opposite of you. I have problems on some rides because I'm thin. I'm 6'1" 140 lbs. Some of the OTSR's don't cover my torso. It is scary...but it does kind of add to the excitement!!!

"TANK........I'm sorry if I offended you" - absolutely none taken. I try to take a real-world view of these things.

"Wow, I'm actually really impressed. That must have taken alot of discipline. Good for you man." - Thanks for the kudos. I can take some credit, but I had to have some medical help to accomplish it. Either way, I am alive, and a far healthier and more active person now.

"at a time when your customers are getting larger?" - and it's not only the "overweight American" syndrome. In general, people are larger than in the past. A good example to look at would be football players. Take a look a college players from the 1920's and 1930's, compared to the players on the field today. These guys would eat their forbears for lunch. And that's not even considering guys who play for the NFL. I realize that athletes are an extreme example, however, it serves to illustrate that overall, especially in western culture, the human form has generally increased in dimensional proportions. There were far, far fewer people standing 6'7" with a large bone structure 50 or 75 years ago.

I try the test seats now & then, and when I get to CP early, sometimes I go up the exit and ask the ride-ops for a test-fit before the ride is open. No one has ever turned me down. They've all been very accomodating. But then, there's a big difference between making a reasonable request at an appropriate time, and going ballistic, blaming the ride-op for not fitting when you should have had sense enough to investigate the situation beforehand. I absolutely refuse to put myself, the ride-op, or the rest of the park guests through the "walk of shame".

Anyway, I hope I can fit on the Maverick. The POV video looks great, and I love loops and inversions. I would hope that CP has a real-world approach to the test seat and restraints. And if not, well, there's always Maggie.

If you fit in the seat the belt should be long anuff to fit around you. if your to big to fit in the seat or the tee bar wont lock your too big thats the way it should be

Man, I am so sick also of some people harping about "if you are too fat, lose weight". For one, most of the time its said by people who do not have a problem. Its not that I don't give people a pass for being overweight, its that I know (believe me, I know), how hard it can be. Some people have lives that for some reason makes taking care of one self almost secondary. It shouldn't be that way, it just is.

That being said, its not that some people are too fat to ride. A lot of people being turned away at MF were not too fat to ride three or four years ago. Safety is not even the issue here, its the legal shenanigans of a bunch of lawyers.

If I recall, this all began when an unfortunately challenged individual did not properly secure himself in a similar coaster and and poorly run park did not have the staff trained to properly check restraints. We are mostly talking now about people who can safely ride and are aware of what they need to do in order to safely ride.

Hate this topic, and yet I let it get me all wound up again.

I have only made the "walk of shame" once on MF, and that was after fitting just fine in the test seat.

My problem isn't with the length of the seatbelts, but with the inconsistency of the length of the seatbelts. The one time I didn't fit, I decided to go for the front during early entry when there wasn't much of a line. The seatbelt in the front seat was clearly shorter than other seats. I have ridden in the back several times this summer with no problem. If Intamin has mandated a certain length for the seatbelts, then they should all be the same length.

There is also a lack of consistency in how the ride hosts handle the situation. Earlier this summer, while riding MF, they would come and fasten the seatbelt before I even had a chance to try. They were doing a great job hitting interval too. The day of my "walk" the ride host practically refused to offer any assistance.

And while I don't have a problem on TTD, there are differences in seat belt lengths there too. I have just ridden it enough this summer, that I know which seats/trains I won't have any issues on. The purple train for example has much shorter belts than red/green/blue/gold, and black cherry is in between. I've pulled almost 1 1/2" of slack more on all the trains except purple.

"Its not that I don't give people a pass for being overweight, its that I know (believe me, I know), how hard it can be" - this is why philosophic discussions, and grand pronouncements that someone should "look in a mirror and reconsider their lifestyle" have no real bearing here. People are what they are, and this issue should be removed from the discussion of the mechanics of design. Obviously, extreme examples in any direction have to be discarded. If you are extremely large, or extremely small, for example, you will fall outside the range. My goal is to address the range itself, and the adherence, or lack thereof, to standards of design in actual construction and maintenance.

"an unfortunately challenged individual did not properly secure himself in a similar coaster and a poorly run park did not have the staff trained to properly check restraints" - This is the incident to which I referred when I mentioned the "knee-jerk" reaction, and the resulting safety "improvements" to proven ride systems.

"but with the inconsistency of the length of the seatbelts." - absolutely. The belt on the test seat should be the same length as the belt on the first, middle or last seat of any given train. Actually, it would serve best if the test was just a bit shorter than the actual. In any event, break out a tape measure folks, and give us some uniformity.

"that I know which seats/trains I won't have any issues on." - this illustrates the variances which can come into play when people assemble and maintain things. For example, I don't like the Magnum black train. It is smaller and tighter than the other two. The blue train, however, has room for days in the seats and belts. And I always, always ride in the same relative position in any given train. Front of the car, right-hand seat. That's just where I always sit. I have to sit in the front seat, because the other two rows do not have enough knee-room for me.

"they would come and fasten the seatbelt before I even had a chance to try. They were doing a great job hitting interval too. The day of my "walk" the ride host practically refused to offer any assistance" - this is where the "questionable" rider has to show some responsibility. The day I was "stapled" into the Blue Streak, it was early in the season, late in the day, and the ride was dispatching half-empty most of the time. The ride ops were in a great mood, and had time on their hands. It was a perfect time to try a dubious fit. Would I have tried that at 4:00pm on the 4th of July? Not on your life.

Tank and others,

This "persons of extreme size" (PeES) problem has a HUGE effect on ride capacity -- especially on MF as has been pointed out multiple times.

First of all, most of these PoES are able to get into the seat on MF and TTD. The problem comes in when the seatbelt has to be fastened. It is probably safe to say that a minimum of 98 - 99% of the PoES CAN get the seatbelt in their cars buckled for the ride to Cedar Point. A slightly lower, but still similar percentage of folks can, indeed, get the T-Bar in a safe position on MF and TTD. It seems as though in the vast majority of these cases it is the seatbelt causing the problem.

Cedar Fair spends $25 million each for two rides that seem to have seatbelts that are simply too short.

Personally, I have never had a problem getting on a ride because of my size. I am built much more like GoBucks89 than Tank (I do have a bit of a "furniture" problem in that my chest has fallen into my drawers over the past 25 years, but I am 6' 2" and weigh under 180). Magnum can be extremely painful on my legs. The Intamin restraints are an INFINITE improvement in comfort for me!

Unfortunately, there are an awful lot of people (some that I would consider to be unhealthily obese others I would consider to be "big" -- not fat, just big) who either cannot ride or significantly delay the ride launch by taking an extended period of time to get safely into the seat with the restraints in place.

I don't understand why Cedar Point does not work with Intamin, B&M, Arrow or whomever to get one or two rows in each train that can handle 98-99% of the PoES (I can understand "drawing a line", but the line needs to move). If they can spend $21 - $25 million on a ride, I would think that they could work with the auto manufacturers to create a seat belt big enough to get around the PoES. If Intamin can launch a multi-ton train up a 426 foot hill at 120 MPH, they ought to be able to create a seat that can handle 98 - 99% of the current PoES who cannot ride. The same would apply to the tall persons desiring to ride TTD who cannot because their heads are above the seatback. Why not make one row of seatbacks in each train two to fhree inches higher? The additional "drag" on the train may require a very minimal increase in power to clear the hill, but would allow many more to ride the ride.

Back when the Blue Streak first opened (yes, I rode it the first year), virtually everyone could get on the ride. When someone could not, they truly were a "person of EXTREME size."

Today, many persons that are just "big" either cannot get on or take an extra 30 seconds to two minutes to get secured into the ride, thus killing the launch interval targets. A big reason for MF's long lines is due to poor capacity caused by PoES either not being able to fit into the seat (with the 1" of slack -- where is the scientific proof that 1" is significantly safer than .8"?) or taking an extremely long time to get secured.

I am not going to ask folks to consider a life change. I am not going to ask women to stop having children (a key "factor" in many of the women who are PoES). I am not asking Cedar Point to accommodate 100% of the population.

On the other hand, it seems to me that Cedar Point and Intamin ought to be able to figure out how to make a lap belt that CAN be extended an extra 3 or 4 inches beyond what is used now WITHOUT negatively impacting the safety of the rider on both MF and TTD (Maverick should be better due to the OTSRs, but once again, could ONE ROW of seats per train be made 10% larger to accommodate 98 - 99% of the PoES?). I can't imagine that the added 6 - 8" of seatbelt fabric per row of seats that get expanded would make a significant difference in the price of the ride. Even making one set of OTSRs per train slightly larger should not have a big impact on the cost of the ride (yes, several thousand dollars in extra fabrication costs, but a small fraction of the overall cost of the ride).

These changes would benefit not only the Tanks of the world, but all of the rest of us in terms of shortened wait times.

Once again, sorry for rambling. When you get old, your mind tends to wander.

"If Intamin can launch a multi-ton train up a 426 foot hill at 120 MPH, they ought to be able to create a seat that can handle 98 - 99% of the current PoES who cannot ride. "

"These changes would benefit not only the Tanks of the world, but all of the rest of us in terms of shortened wait times."

- Bravo! Bravo! Author! Author! (sounds of cheering crowds in background)

.
*** Edited 9/8/2006 12:39:40 PM UTC by Tank***

To clarify something mentioned in an earlier post:

Having worked for CP in the recent past, I can verify that they do, in fact, check the lengths of seatbelts several times each summer. I've had to do this myself more than once.

As seatbelts are used, they experience wear and tend to lengthen or stretch somewhat from use. This includes the belt located on the test seat. Also, installing seatbelts, from what I've heard, is not an exact science in terms of lengths. The park and the crews do hate to turn people away from entrances, and even less from platforms. Forgetting even the capacity issues, we feel bad as human beings (yes, rideops do have emotions and at times even feel bad for guests ;-) ).

The point of this story is that even if all seatbelts began at the same length, which is an iffy prospect to start with, they would gradually start to have variance in lengths as they were used. CP replaces seatbelts as needed during the season, typically not all at once.

Hang in there, guys. I think Maverick will be a little bit better. For those of you who have been able to make lifestyle changes, I bow to your efforts and dedication. See ya at the Point!

Thank You! I agree 100% Just a few more inches of belt, that's ALL I'm asking for.... maybe in "one specific row"

Wow.... It seems like the "general public" has taken their smart pills
today!! ;-)

You guys keep forgetting one thing here. These changes were made after someone died with the same restraints. That's the only reason the belts were shortened. Cedar Point really doesn't want people falling out of their coasters.

I'm still not sure why all new coaster trains don't have electronic means of monitoring the PRIMARY safety restraint. If the bar isn't down far enough, the train can't disbatch. How hard can that possibly be? The seatbelt is a secondary safety device. So, in theory, it shouldn't matter how long it is. I would think straining the seatbelt actually makes the situation worse. They should be focusing on the restraint itself.

If for some reason, the T-bar on MF were to fail and someone's size/weight is straining the latch on the seatbelt, the seatbelt could then fail too. This concept, from the beginning, has always baffled me. The seatbelt shouldn't be used as a way to get people not to ride. It should be the lap bar. The seatbelt should fit everyone who the bar fits.

I also don't understand why the seatbelts can't be tied into the ride control system. If an automobile can tell you when your seatbelt isn't fastened, a roller coaster the size of MF should be able to do the same thing. Simple engineering here. Seatbelt buckled, green light. Lap bar down to a certain point, green light. All green lights on the train, off it goes. Now I know this isn't possible on MF, but if a lap bar or seatbelt comes undown, the train should stop.

After the recent deaths on amusement rides because of people being too big, I'm not sure why the rides themselves aren't designed to shut down if someone is too big or a safety restraint fails.