Something new....

Edit: No more posting for me early in the morning. lol. Jeff, I apologize. Reading back, I honestly do not know why I addressed that to you.

I agree that it is not the best family park right now. I have said before that I will not be taking my son to Cedar Point until he is old enough to ride most of the coasters.

Yes, CP has some flat rides, but not that many. They have about as many or less than the county fair. That is not enough for me to drive a long while and pay my right arm and leg for.

I personally wouldn't be upset at all if Cedar Point never added another roller coaster. IMO their collection is great as it is right now. So they wouldn't turn me away if they started directing the park more "family friendly." It would probably be their best bet to go ahead and do that.

I am the type to run from coaster to coaster. But I guess if you went there with you family, you would see a lot more of CP's flaws.

It is the coasters that appeal to me. But for someone looking for overall atmosphere and family friendliness, CP doesn't really win there...

You can argue that they added Planet Snoopy. But I didn't even know that was Planet Snoopy, due to how small it was. Camp Snoopy is great, but not worth paying over $35 in ticket prices, a bundle for food, and A LOT of gas money.

And Ben...who doesn't like enjoying their rides on Magnum? :)

I didn't say that it wasn't the best family park right now. I said it wasn't a good value and there are a lot of things they do poorly.

bholcomb said:
Fair enough. But really how many truely family rides are out there that Cedar Point doesn't have that young kids and adults can enjoy alike?

Truth be told, the Point does have an enormous number of rides and attractions that appeal to families. I don't think there's any disputing that. But as far as suggesting that they've focused as much on family attractions in recent years as thrill rides, that's where I have to disagree.

Just off the top of my head, here's a sampling of rides/attractions and their approximate replacement in the last couple decades:

Ride removed / replaced with

Millrace / Raptor
WWL / Maverick
Jungle Larry's / Power Tower
Aquarium / Wicked Twister
Dodgem 2 / Top Thrill Dragster
Schwabinchen / Chaos*

*Previously existing at current TTD midway

CPboy77, four of the coasters on that list have height requirements of 48", making those only very arguably 'family' coasters. And Junior Gemini is not a family coaster either; it's a children's coaster. If it were a family coaster it would have trains that reasonably accomodated adult size bodies.

Here's the thing. Just because an adult is permitted to ride a children's ride doesn't make it a family ride, in my most humble opinion. If the primary enjoyment elicited from a ride is just watching your child enjoy the attraction, then it's not truly a 'family' ride. I believe that a true family ride has to appeal to the entire family, as a family and as individuals.

That's why in a previous post I suggested that of all the rides at Camp Snoopy, only Woodstock Express and the Tilt-a-Whirl are true family rides. I can ride Tilt-a-Whirl with my daughter and watch her having fun on it, but it's also quite enjoyable for me, with or without her. Family ride.

As an alternate example, I can enjoy riding Snoopy Bus with my daughter, simply because I love watching her having fun. But personally, it does nothing for me. Children's ride.

In my opinion, Cedar Point needs to get a spinning roller coaster, like Sierra Sidewinder at Knott's Berry Farm. If Cedar Point would get one of these, it would help them in many ways. First of all, it would be a roller coaster that the whole family could enjoy becuase it is intense but not terrifying. These coasters also have a lower height requirement so the little ones will be able to ride too. Spinning coasters are modern and new. They would also give Cedar Point more variety of coasters since there are many Intamins at the park which basically only appeal to the teens and adults, not the kids. A spinning coaster would be a great addition to the Cedar Point family.

I would love to see CP get a spinning mouse. Sure, they don't have fantastic capacity, but that could be made up for by building the world's first dueling spinner (or at least I've never heard of one). They could be programmed to race, with crossovers and flybys reminiscent of Dueling Dragons at IoA.

Another idea that would be fantastic would be a hybrid of a spinning mouse and a terra coaster like Maverick. Imagine spinning your way through canyons, tunnels, and LSM launches. Now that would be tres cool.

Disney's Animal Kingdom has the Primordial Whirl. That is a dual spinning coaster, but not a dueling.

We could all go the wish list route again, and spiral into pipe dreams. But the reality is that Cedar Point, once the giant amongst amusement parks, cannot hope to hold that title with the "run it into the ground" mentality that the leaders of CF carry.

Tickets (with parking) are ridiculous, end of story. I don't care who you are or how much money you make, the price of admission does NOT equal the park offerings. I also happen to know that many people who continue to blindly shout out that CP is the best omfg zz111! park also happen to be season pass holders. Admission prices and food prices do not affect you as much as they do the majority: families and single day visitors.

Food sucks. The only reason why it doesn't suck as much is that instead of fixing the food services department, which is badly broken, they patched it over by adding chain options. You can never paint over ugly no matter how hard you try, especially not with the pricing within the chain locations.

Other parks have far better deals. Just take a look around at other parks, even those under the CF name. Far better ticket prices and overall better quality in a lot of other parks. They don't carry the "rockin' rollercoast" title, but they don't have to be the best to have a better deal.

The fact is this: many of us have been hit hard by the receeding economy, however, we'd still like to go out on weekends and have fun, or family time. Losing sight of having fun in the midst of a miserable economy is what too many people are doing. Taking focus off of the incredible list of economical problems that surround us keeps many of us sane. Many businesses and other parks have realized that, and taken measures to keep their customers.

What's CP or even CF done lately, that will help them out long term, and on a large scale?

^ To be honest I'd describe CP as a better value at $42.95 than $67.95 for Busch Gardens... Prices for parks are expensive these days no matter which one you go to.

Tickets (with parking) are ridiculous

Sigh... So many of you are ungrateful for the ticket prices, but the reality is that they are a steal! CP ticket prices are UNDERPRICED compared to other parks. SF dropped their ticket prices $10 and are still in the $50 range.

Plus if you actually pay the full 42.95 you're a sucker. There's so many opportunities out there for discounts. They will mail you a Getaway Guide full of coupons. You don't even have to go searching for them.

Magic Mountain is 30 dollars, buy one get one free.
Great Adventure has a 6 visit ticket for 50 dollars.

Six Flags seems to price things pretty cheaply. I wouldn't feel bad paying 38 dollars or whatever the discounted cedar point tickets are. Hell, to go skiing one day its at least that much if not more.

I don't think CP's single day ticket prices are out of line. Six Flags Magic Mountain charges $60 at the gate, and that is the "Cedar Point" of Six Flags. Yes, if you print at home you can get tickets for $30 per person, but the getaway guide gives you $8 off $43 at Cedar Point making it $35. I have been to Magic Mountain and Cedar Point and back then (in 2006), Magic Mountain was $40 discounted, so Six Flags has more agressive pricing recently, but I would pay $5 more to go to Cedar Point just for the overall better atmosphere and cleanliness compared to SFMM. However, I do think that Cedar Fair Platinum Passes are ridiculous.

I got a season pass to ALL Six Flags parks (had to activate it at Kentucky Kingdom first, but activating it at the park of purchase is the standard these days) for $38! $150 for a Platinum Pass is just way too expensive. Our family of 4 has two Six Flags season passes and we have been to two Six Flags parks (both with free waterparks) this year for a total of roughly 3 full days for 4 people and have spent $96 total on tickets (INCLUDING the 2 season passes), including one day where we brought 2 friends who did not have season passes. Not only does Six Flags have cheap season passes, but they also give you a big book of coupons including bring a friend free on 6 different days/weeks and bring a friend for ~half price for 5 different time periods. I would go to Cedar Point over any Six Flags park if cost was not a factor, but Six Flags season passes are less than 1/3 of the price of Cedar Fair season passes. (Yes we watched for a good deal to get that price, but we watched for a good deal from Cedar Fair too and there was nothing out of the ordinary.) I think that since Cedar Fair has such high prices on season passes, it is out of the question to get season passes to Cedar Fair and another chain of parks for most families, and I wouldn't be suprised if a lot of families choose Six Flags season passes simply because they are significantly cheaper, despite Cedar Fair parks being nicer/cleaner.

EDIT: Even now, in the middle of the summer, Six Flags Magic Mountain has season passes for $70 (vaild at all Six Flags parks after you activate at Magic Mountain), that is less than half the price of a Cedar Fair Platinum Pass.

Does the Six Flags pass include parking? I hardly think $150 for a Platinum Pass it over the top. Judging by the amount of people at the Platinum Pass ride night for Dragster, it seems like passes are doing quite well. Cedar Fair isn't the best run company in the country but I like to think it's better than Six Flags.

I think CP's ticket and pass prices are reasonable or maybe even a bit low for what they offer. There are plenty of parks charging close to 40 bucks and not offering half of what CP does. The problem is that they bend you over hard for parking, food, drinks, games, and everything else you might want or need throughout the course of the day, creating the perception of a raping, not of a good value. If they'd jack up the admission by three or four bucks a person and give free parking, they'd change the perception. Same with drinks. They could charge $49.95 with free parking and drinks and I think their per cap would be higher and people would feel much less violated. Or maybe they could have some sort of meal deal for 15 bucks. Maybe they could install the free timed lockers like Universal so people wouldn't have to be so worried about buying stuff because they'll have to worry about losing it or carrying it the rest of the day.

The problem is that with the way they structure things, there are basically turf wars between various departments. They all have their individual budgets and have to do more with less every year otherwise big Dick (Kinzel) gets after them. No one is allowed to suggest that they do things differently for fear of getting shot down or worse yet, demoted or fired. Good ideas have been getting stomped out in that company for years. They've pushed good people out the door with lack of empowerment and poor pay. Kinzel needs to leave yesterday and sadly, I'm not sure Falfas is really all that different.

Vince982 said:
Does the Six Flags pass include parking?
Cedar Fair isn't the best run company in the country but I like to think it's better than Six Flags.

That is true, the Six Flags pass does not include parking. I hadn't thought about that. At Kentucky Kingdom it is only $5 per car, but St. Louis charges $15, so if you visit multiple different Six Flags parks frequently that is a downside. You can buy a parking pass valid at a specific Six Flags park for $30-40 (if I remember correctly), but if you travel around to a lot of Six Flags parks it could get expensive for parking.

I was not in any way trying to suggest that Cedar Fair parks are worse than Six Flags parks. My best trip to a Six Flags park still has not come close to any of my trips to CP, Kings Island, or Knott's. I was just saying that despite Six Flags parks being significantly worse than Cedar Fair Parks in just about every area that I can think of, the low price for a season pass at Six Flags parks is big draw if your family is on a tight budget.

MDOmnis said:
Or maybe they could have some sort of meal deal for 15 bucks.

Don't they have one at Subway? 6-inch sub, chips and a drink for 15 bucks? ;)

Cedar Fair season passes are priced just right. You get admission to 12+ parks and parking included at all of those parks, plus a lot of different perks beyond just the ERT and early entry at all of the parks. SIX has always undersold and undervalued their chain when it comes to season passes. Why do you think their parks are constantly seen as convenient "babysitting services (remember Worlds of Adventure)?"

As for the issues brought up by Matt, I completely agree. And your last sentence is very true, though surprisingly I haven't noticed him doing much in the park this year. "Free" parking would do a lot to help people's attitudes about the value from the moment they pull into the parking lot. There are a lot of things that need to change, and it all starts at the top. My TL and I have discussed a lot of the differences between when he worked here back in 2000-2002, and what its like now. Unfortunately I don't think anything will change for the better until there are some new faces at the top.

I don't think Kinzel or anyone else is doing anything wrong besides buying Paramounts parks. At the time it looked great and I was all for it, but the economy has gotten worse even since 2006. Now they have got a massive amount of debt, and are having trouble drawing people into Cedar Point. Even though cedar point is very profitable, it cannot pay off the debt from this purchase even with the best economic situation. CP is not in ANY danger, it is just not as profitable as it was 2 or 3 years ago.

For Cedar point to build more towards the family would be the dumbest idea. That is not what the park is all about. After all CP didn't earn the slogan "America's Roller Coast" by building "family coasters". The economy needs time to bounce back, and it will eventually and CP will be as busy as it can be.

Picture this, brand new for 2009. A spinning dueling wild mouse standing were Gemini gave thrills for 30 years and over 80 million rides. 45FT. 25MPH 800 riders per hour. The first family racing coaster EVER.

Sorry, that just wouldn't help CP's attendance.

The Paramount purchase may be questionable however, the attendance at those parks has held up fairly strong this season (especially my home park, Canada's Wonderland). The aquisition of those parks helped diversify Cedar Fair's market exposure (which will actually help Cedar Point if it doesn't do so well this season). You have to stop looking at just Cedar Point when it comes to paying down Cedar Fair's overall debt.

As for the addition of family attractions, it's most definitely the right direction for the company to go. Family-friendly additions bring in the groups of people that are going to spend money at the park. Sure you need a balance of both, but you have to stop looking at the company as a season/platinum holder, who for the most part, try to spend as little cash every visit (compared to families that will keep bumping up per cap. spending).

Kinzel is an issue, we've talked about this problem endlessly here. Like Matt (and Chief many times previously) has said, the ideas that could really do something end up getting shot down at the top. That includes everything from perks and things that would help seasonal employees (as well as their employment numbers and quality of employee), to things that would go a long way in helping operations at the park (technology upgrades in particular, CF, and CP in particular, is finally catching up to where most parks were 5 or more years ago). How long have POS (that's point of sale) systems been around and in widespread use in the industry? Now, how long did it take before Cedar Point specifically got them in any noticeable amount? This year, with the upgrade of the admissions system that they got from the Paramount parks. In fact, other than franchise and outside food places, I would say that 99% of the registers and places that handle cash are the older machines from the 70s and 80s, that only increase transaction time.

As for your view on family friendly attractions, think about who spends more in the park on one visit. You have a group of four teens or passholders who are all about the coasters. The passholders spend nothing to get into the park (assume they've already attended enough [other parks included] that they have pretty much gotten the $150 out of their pass), the teens spent maybe $170. Throughout the day, the spending of the passholders and the teens is likely very comparable. The teens don't have a large amount of disposable income on hand, so they're not going to buy much food, merchandise, or play too many games. The passholders will likely not play games, buy maybe a shirt or hat, and buy one, maybe two meals throughout the day. Now take a look at what a family of four spends in one day.

Admission (3 regular, 1 junior ticket): approx. $140 full price tickets
Food: 3 meals x 4 people, $11 per meal, comes out to approx. $132
Games: the kids always want prizes, and you almost never get it on your first try, so let's say they'll spend $30 on games, and then another $20 in the arcade, that's $50.
Merchandise: Everyone gets a shirt (not unusual at all), and both kids want a hat, that will come out to about $120 (4 shirts, 2 hats, each at $20).

With a family of four on a day trip, it isn't hard to spend at least $500-600 in a day. Imagine what happens to that number for the families that are staying at one of the resorts. Families are where the money is, and your target should always be where the money is.