Raw Efficiency

CP_Obsessed_Freak1987 said:

....I think that in today's times they are needed. People are becoming less and less observant of their surroundings.

My problem is that on some rides, the train comes in, the people are released, and then you still wait a minute or two for the gates to open. That's inefficient.

I agree but also disagree on the first part. When I look around at how unobservant people are it makes me think gates are definitely needed. But as someone else pointed, subways and train platforms are still wide open and I wonder if it could still work for coasters. I've made two trips to NYC in the past two months and use the subway a lot while there. Everybody stays behind the yellow line and stays there until the train comes to a complete stop. Then again these people are accustomed to this type of behavior. So in todays age I'd like to see a coaster platform run without gates just to see what might happen.

I agree with your next statement. I have witnessed operators open the gates at the same time as they release the lap bars/harnesses thus allowing the oncoming guest to step into the train as soon as the exiting guest is stepping out. This is much more efficient than waiting until all guests have exited the train before opening the gates.

http://www.courierpostonline.com/story/news/crime/2017/01/28/police.../97198700/

And this Just happened Friday:

Police: Stranger threw child in front of approaching train

Before station gates were commonplace, can anyone remember a single instance of a guest (not just at Cedar Point but anywhere) being run over by a roller coaster train? I can't. Regardless, the way Cedar Point operates station gates, capacity isn't really affected. Other parks are a different story.

^ I believe a ride op at SFMM was killed on Revolution in the 90s. The drive chain (yes, a chain, not tires) in the station couldn't be stopped (and had to move both trains at once) if memory serves, but I don't know the details.

I imagine that a coaster with a drive tire and/or brake based system, like almost every other coaster, is less dangerous in this regard.

^^ A coaster in the station (with the exception of some rides like Wicked Twister, etc.) can be stopped quickly. A transit train can not.

GigaG said:

^^ A coaster in the station (with the exception of some rides like Wicked Twister, etc.) can be stopped quickly. A transit train can not.

When seconds count, the reaction time of ride ops is not going change the outcome in that scenario.

And speaking of Wicked Twister, the computer would stop the train a lot faster with a break in the eye sensors or the gate than a ride op would as well.

Çp4€và04 said:
I couldn't agree more Shane, but we both know our lovely home park won't do that. I could be wrong but aren't they only running one train now on Superman?

Darien Lake runs one rain on everything. They insist they run 2 on Viper but I haven't seen it in years. I emailed them in December 2015 saying we were debating about season passes (I've been a passholder since 1994) because their operations had become so bad. I was assured that Viper had been running 2 trains in 2015, at least one other coaster would return to 2 train operations in 2016 (didn't happen), RoS was getting a new train (it did) and their goal was to have all coasters except Boomerang and H&H running 2 trains for 2017 (not holding my breath). They are under new ownership this year but still managed by Premier Parks. I have a feeling it will be meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Mantis:TCFKAB was, in fact, the first coaster at Cedar Point to have gates, unless you count Gemini. The old orange platform rails included mechanisms for gates, but I don't know if it ever operated with them. They were gone in 1979 when I took my first ride.

Boarding gates are NOT required by the ASTM standards, but when used they are to meet the fence standard. See F2291-16:14.5, which I realize was *just* published...

What I don't understand is why Millennium Force is the only ride to get double gates. The double gates can open and close faster than the single gates, and more important, take up less space. Part of the reason the gates are so far back on the loading platforms is to allow the crews space to work when the gates are open. I'm sure we have all been to parks where you can't walk along the load side of the train when the gates are open...heck, Gemini is like that now. It seems to me that the Millennium Force-style gates solve a lot of the problems created by the use of platform gates, and they are not that much more complicated.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

^In my experience, MF's loading gates are quite slow.

XS NightClub said:

GigaG said:

^^ A coaster in the station (with the exception of some rides like Wicked Twister, etc.) can be stopped quickly. A transit train can not.

When seconds count, the reaction time of ride ops is not going change the outcome in that scenario.

And speaking of Wicked Twister, the computer would stop the train a lot faster with a break in the eye sensors or the gate than a ride op would as well.

But a train coming down the back tower doesn't have much space to stop.

Couldn't a light curtain be used on a "normal" coaster in conjunction with an open loading platform as a backup to ride ops? I'm worried it would cause more down time because of people breaking the curtain... but it worked for 30 years at CP, and it worked at Knoebels until this past season, without a light curtain and without anybody getting themselves killed on a coaster train.

Something I observed at Cedar Point back when there were no gates...

On some rides, the operators had to constantly remind people to stand behind, not on, the yellow line. Blue Streak was an especially egregious example. And yet on other rides, such as Gemini, the Yellow Line was hardly even mentioned.

So I started looking more closely.

On nearly every ride, riders waiting in the shotgun would tend to walk all the way up to the end of the rail and stand at the end of the rail, regardless of where the yellow line was painted. When the yellow line was painted at or beyond the end of the queue rails, yellow line incursions were rare or non-existent. On rides where the yellow line was painted a foot or two back into the standing space, yellow line violations were *constant*.

Remember, these are observations in the absence of boarding gates.

Speaking of gates, yes, the gates on Millennium Force are slow, but their design means they will clear the opening in half the time of a single gate moving at the same speed. Also, because they clear the opening from the middle, most people can actually pass through the gate when it is only about half way open. That doesn't work so well with the standard gates.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Shane Denmark said:
Easy solution to Raptor's gates restricting space on the load side of the station is only allow enough people in the station to fill one or two trains at a time. I love that at Millennium Force. Wish more coasters and parks did that. (I'm looking at you, Ride of Steel at Darien Lake)...

In theory it sounds like a great idea, but in reality it's actually better to flood as many people as possible into the station as possible. If the ride op team is operating at their optimum level that station can be cleared in under 3 minutes due to the capacity of the ride. There would be times where the crowns hose is handing a situation at the turnstile restricting line access and before you could even blink the station is nearing empty. Believe me, we tried being restrictive, sometimes pregrouping lines in each chute. It is just way to much work for little gain if any at all. It's easier to just group pairs of 2 at the gates between trains, which doesn't really happen anymore.

BGRooDoG said:

...in reality it's actually better to flood as many people as possible into the station as possible. If the ride op team is operating at their optimum level that station can be cleared in under 3 minutes due to the capacity of the ride.

I don't know, it seems like keeping around 3 trains worth of people in the station is ideal. That provides enough bodies to keep trains mostly full, while avoiding a chaotic station where it's difficult to see a row that may go unfilled.

A fast-opening version of MF's gates would work great.

Apparently I have not noticed how much time is lost due to the gates. My unperceptive observation is that the train pulls into the station, it stops, the gates open, and now I wait for the people to get off. I do not see the gates causing a delay. Even on Gemini and Blue Streak which seem to be the most frequently referenced as gate trouble spots my experience is that the on-boading people are always waiting on the off-boarding people to get out of the seat rather than waiting on the gate to open. Am I missing something?

With regards to the 1/2 versus full gates, how much time would be saved? Sure the half gates open faster than the full but what is the savings? In other words how long does it take the gates on Raptor to open? 2 seconds, maybe 3? I don't see how cutting that in half does any good especially when the people on-boarding people can't immediately be seated because the off-boarding people are still in the way.

Shades said:

Sure the half gates open faster than the full but what is the savings?

Shaving 2 seconds per dispatch increases capacity almost 3% on Raptor, assuming no other limiting factors. That's pretty significant. Using 2016 numbers, that's an extra 41,524 rides given over the course of a season.

Sure, there are other factors that affect capacity, but that doesn't mean controllable factors shouldn't be optimized.

Assuming no other limiting factors - awful big assumption in this case. My point was that opening the gates faster will not shave 2 seconds off of a dispatch time (and that is assuming the gate is currently at 4 seconds, which it is not). If opening the gate in 0 seconds (i.e. no gate) results in the on-boarders still waiting on the off-boarders then you are throwing money at something that does not help reduce the dispatch time. That is wasting money in my world.

I agree with Shades on this, almost every time I board a train we are waiting for people to offload, grab something they forget or figure out how to use a seatbelt.

Shades said:

My point was that opening the gates faster will not shave 2 seconds off of a dispatch time (and that is assuming the gate is currently at 4 seconds, which it is not).

Raptor hourly capacity = 1600 ==> Raptor dispatches per hour = 1600/32 = 50 ==> 1 Raptor dispatch every 72 seconds

Therefore, saving 2 seconds in any way increases theoretical capacity by 2/72 ==> 2.78%.

If opening the gate in 0 seconds (i.e. no gate) results in the on-boarders still waiting on the off-boarders then you are throwing money at something that does not help reduce the dispatch time.

Yes, but this assumes the gate is never a hindrance to capacity, which isn't always the case. And it gets away from the initial point which was that double gates are more efficient in terms of capacity compared to single gates.

I never noticed the gates being a hindrance to capacity at CP. Usually I'm waiting for people to get off the train, standing by the open gate. No difference than if there were no gates.

Shane Denmark said:

Darien Lake runs one rain on everything. They insist they run 2 on Viper but I haven't seen it in years. I emailed them in December 2015 saying we were debating about season passes (I've been a passholder since 1994) because their operations had become so bad. I was assured that Viper had been running 2 trains in 2015, at least one other coaster would return to 2 train operations in 2016 (didn't happen), RoS was getting a new train (it did) and their goal was to have all coasters except Boomerang and H&H running 2 trains for 2017 (not holding my breath). They are under new ownership this year but still managed by Premier Parks. I have a feeling it will be meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Wow, I didn't realize they were doing that on Viper as well. Pretty amazing the difference in our little side conversation. On one hand the discussion is cutting off a couple seconds of the gates opening (Perfectly valid) and on the other we have a park that won't even run the major attractions at full capacity. I'm willing to bet that you aren't the only one to complain and there are even more folks like me who gave up a long time ago. Even the music venue is a disaster compared to the new Lake View Amphitheater and SPAC. So between the two being sub-par all my business goes elsewhere.

Hopefully things shape up down the road. It really is a beautiful place with a ton of potential between the park and concerts.