Late Ride Openings

Jeff said:
The price changing and newer marketing will hopefully correct things to get back to the ideal in the next year.

Haha - that's a good one. Isn't that what Six Flags did? Made their parks cheaper and got a cool (Mr. Six) marketing campaign? Yea - that will fix everything!

Well you always have all of the answers Matt. You tell us how to make it all better without affecting the bottom line, or more importantly, the distribution.

I have a lot of eggs in that basket. If you expect me to cry over a couple people not getting to ride Mean Streak before 11am, it's not going to happen.

I don't see the big deal in this. Why pay to operate a ride that gets no riders that early? It's not like MF, TTD, Raptor, Skyhawk and other major rides are shut down until noon.

There's no reason to become assholes about this. If the park is advertising a 10am opening and the rides aren't opening till 11am, that is a problem. If they advertise at the gate "Most rides open at 10am, all rides open by 11am" then no problem.

Also, remember that your average parkgoer is only there once a season, if that. Consistancy is important to keep these guests happy. If they aren't informed ahead of time that changes to ride opening policies have happened, would you want to be the one at guest relations fielding the complaint of "I walked all the way to the back of the park to ride Mean Streak only to find out that you guys aren't deciding to open it till 11?"

Magnum "Candy" Man said:
They are confusing the hell out of everyone!

The first two Sundays, the gates opened at 9:30 for JC & Resort Guests. This past Sunday I took my time getting to park knowing this. It was a few minutes past 9am and the gates were already open! What gives?! Pick a time and stick with it!

It's "supposed" to be gates at 9 letting people as far as the blue gates for JCC/Resorts. Blue gates go away at 9:30, most things are scheduled to open at 10. Now whether or not things go how they're supposed to seems to vary day to day. The park advertises a 10 AM opening, so anything you get before then is really just a bonus.

Jeff said:
You tell us how to make it all better without affecting the bottom line, or more importantly, the distribution.
.

Well maybe it's just me, but I fail to see how it's suddenly necessary to cut operating costs throughout the park to maintain their annual distribution to share holders. I'm aware that the money has to come from somewhere, but shouldn't cutting back the operating hours throughout the season already cover this? In my opinion, it should be one or the other--not both. they seem to be double dipping with the addition of the late ride openings since they are effectively cutting hours from both ends of the daily operating schedule.

This also has the potential of setting a dangerous precedent throughout ride operations. What's stopping them from keeping all but the most popular rides closed until noon in the future?

Hopefully this policy doesn't find its way into peak hour days.

I won't be so upset if this goes away after the park gets busier. Generally, you have no problem riding whatever the heck you want pretty much all day in May and even early June. But I do think it is poor if they continue this through July and August. Getaway guides, websites, brochures all advertise a 10 o'clock opening. People don't like showing up to find they were duped and have someone point out the small print that says operating schedule subject to change. Oh and Millennium Force is closed today too.

I also maintain that there are some real scary trends still going on at CP. While there are a good number of things to be optimistic about this year (seemingly pretty good mood of employees early on, spiels, cotton candy), there are a few things that still concern me as a guest and would concern me as an investor too - like cutting admission, cutting hours, opening rides late, a larger than normal number of rides down, etc. We've seen this before with another company - ticker symbol PKS.

Sure it costs money to fix all of these things. But these things ARE THE HEART OF YOUR BUSINESS. If people don't enjoy your park enough to come back, you have no business left nomatter how much you saved on cost cutting. Dick Kinzel has said many times that CP prides itself on making opening day the same as the fourth of July and closing day. I do not really see that consistency taking shape early on this season.

I don't know, if I were an investor, the park cutting costs in a way that only seems to make enthusiasts upset is a good thing.

I asked a few people who went this week from my work how they felt about rides opening later than others and they had no idea what I was talking about. They are the general public, the people that matter most to Cedar Fair. It would be great if the park only catered to us the enthusiasts, but they don't and probably never will.

The ride issue is not that big of a deal. CP is bound to have a downtime issue at some point in it's ride operations and when something goes down (TTD being an exception) they do their best to fix it ASAP. By your comparison, if the park was operating like the company you say it is, MF would not have even been looked at yet.

The company cuts a couple of corners and people start whining when this issue will probably never affect some of you. *** Edited 5/25/2006 11:34:17 AM UTC by Coastern3rd***

^So when they fix all of their rides ASAP, except TTD. Hmmm...

I'm sure it's not all to do with staffing. I'm sure it cost some money to operate a ride that no one is riding other than you folks who hang out in Frontier Town only at 10am. At least they're not shuting the rides down early.

If anything, I think this issue affects the GP more than an enthusiast. An enthusiast is always going to go for a "popular" ride first, but a parent walking in at 10AM with his kid who already conquered Woodstock and Jr. Gemini last season and wants to ride Corkscrew first, might be disappointed considering they just walked a half mile for nothing and now have to wait an hour wondering why CP thinks people that ride large and popular rides are more important than them.

I compare it to Coca-Cola deciding to fill their bottle with 1/4 water and 3/4 Coke to save money. I know it's all just sugar water to begin with! :) But Coke is their product. Rides are a huge part of Cedar Point's product. If the quality or the quantity of either product is not as advertised or not as good or better than was in the past, people might not buy it again. Sure there will be those people who would buy the Coke anyway "because it's still better than the competition" and there will be people who defend Cedar Point because "they offer more service than Six Flags ever did." But the point is the product is being dilluted and that spells trouble.

I was at the park yesterday. I did not know about these late openings, nor did the general public. So when MF is down, along with 4 other rollercoasters untill about 11pm, people were not very happy at that point. I also don't understand why they only run one side of Gemini when their is a line(one of our longest waits of the day other than TTD). Then to add to the rollercoaster closings, raptor was down at 5 or 6pm. But that has nothing to do with this.

^The ride's would be open if it wasn't for only five families heading toward Corkscrew in one hour.

CP is one of the few parks that open up in early May and stay open on the weekdays. Most parks are only open on weekends until Memorial Day. We're lucky they didn't adjust their days of operation like other parks have.

Ralph Wiggum said:

Magnum "Candy" Man said:
They are confusing the hell out of everyone!

The first two Sundays, the gates opened at 9:30 for JC & Resort Guests. This past Sunday I took my time getting to park knowing this. It was a few minutes past 9am and the gates were already open! What gives?! Pick a time and stick with it!

It's "supposed" to be gates at 9 letting people as far as the blue gates for JCC/Resorts. Blue gates go away at 9:30, most things are scheduled to open at 10. Now whether or not things go how they're supposed to seems to vary day to day. The park advertises a 10 AM opening, so anything you get before then is really just a bonus.

They weren't using those portable blue gates at all. They were sitting under Magnum platform,though.

Yes, the park advertises a 10am opening. But, when resort guests expect to get in at a certain time, then find out it's changed, is something else. What if you were staying there and went to the gates at 9:30 because you heard about the the later opening on Sundays. But you get there to find out they opened at 9am, That's a whole 30 min you could have gotten some extra riding in. As a guest spending a lot of money to stay on park property, you want to take advantage of any of the perks.

9 or 9:30 - I don't care myself. As long as they stay consistant.

Actually, the portable blue gates *were* there at 9:10 when I walked in. You were just late. ;)

The gate-opening times are on the park website's calendar, and have been since it was published---early in the season, its 9:30/10:00. As things pick up, it's 9:00/9:30. Except for bonus/halloweekend fridays, it looks like Resorts/JCC is an hour before open, and GP is 30 minutes. Friday evenings it is 30/open.

It may be frustrating that it changes, but at least it was published---unlike the staggered opening times.

ETA: we may be talking about different entrances. I came in the main gate, not the resorts gate.

*** Edited 5/25/2006 2:27:06 PM UTC by Brian Noble***

CP_bound said:
Well maybe it's just me, but I fail to see how it's suddenly necessary to cut operating costs throughout the park to maintain their annual distribution to share holders.

Which part don't you understand. More expense == less money to give to unit holders (and spend on cap ex, service debt, etc.).

Coastern3rd said:
I don't know, if I were an investor, the park cutting costs in a way that only seems to make enthusiasts upset is a good thing.

Yeah, they never spend any money anyway after a season pass. :) Or so the many threads on eating in your car would lead me to believe.

MDOmnis said:
We've seen this before with another company - ticker symbol PKS.

That's not even a valid comparison. Six Flags grew too big, too fast, and financed themselves to death. Operationally, they sucked to begin with, and that's what hurt attendance and revenue for them long before they started cutting costs (and the weather, if you believed the old regime). Let's face it, someone deserves a medal for maintaining revenue in this company despite shrinking attendance and the dismal economy in half of the park's market. In the big picture, a couple of rides opening an hour later isn't going ruin anyone's day, and there's little doubt in my mind that they'll go back to "normal" when the crowds merit that situation.

I might add that some of the finest parks in the world, including Islands of Adventure and Busch Gardens Europe, do staggered openings of the park to shape crowd control and reduce cost.

That last bit reminds me, Disney's Epcot Center does not open the International section until an hour (maybe more) after the Future World section opens. Epcot is usually very dead in the morning.

WDW has many examples of this. In MK, at least a half-dozen attractions plus one entire land open an hour after the park does on all but the very busiest of days; some of these also close early. In AK, the river rapids ride opens late, and the safari experience closes before the park on later nights (though that is due to lighting issues). In addition to EP/WS's late open, about half of EP/FW closes early.

The difference between the way WDW handles this, and the way CP has so far, is that WDW has a little printed handbill that lists every late open and early close, so you don't have to walk across an entire park to find a delayed opening, and you don't arrive at an attraction after it has closed thinking it was still open. (Well, you don't if you actually read the little handbill, and almost no one does...)
*** Edited 5/25/2006 2:28:05 PM UTC by Brian Noble***

Let's face it, someone deserves a medal for maintaining revenue in this company despite shrinking attendance and the dismal economy in half of the park's market.

That is somewhat questionable. I am glad that they have kept their revenue respectable despite slipping attendance, but I have long believed that their methods of keeping revenue relatively constant are in fact contributing to the declining attendance. All prices were kept high and rides were often not run at capacity. This certainly allowed CF to make more revenue per guest, but sunk their perceived value which they are trying so hard to get back.

In the big picture, a couple of rides opening an hour later isn't going ruin anyone's day, and there's little doubt in my mind that they'll go back to "normal" when the crowds merit that situation.

It really won't ruin anyone's day and it isn't a big deal, but the only fear I have is that these cuts may be just the beginning. Last year, I heard of numerous accounts of PT running only two towers on busy days, the SkyRide reduced to half capacity at a certain time regardless of attendance, etc. If the delayed openings are an isolated procedure, then I don't disagree with it. However, it does seem slightly odd for them to do this when it is so painfully obvious that they are desperate for guests to feel that going to CP is a good value these days.

I'm sure that they can attribute the decline in attendance to over-pricing admission and the crappy Detroit economy. People seem to be having a good time whenever I go. The problem with people on this site is that they look at everything under a microscope and think that's the way the world at large views the park.

Hey! You watch what you say about Detroit. The economy is not crappy, it's down right horrible. ;)

Jeff hits the nail on the head again. Where we see Cedar Point doing things to disappoint us, the rest of the guests might not even notice.

Most people don't start high tailing it to the biggest rides as soon as the gates open. Hell, most guests are not even at the gate before opening. Those you see waiting is just a fraction of the days total guest count.

I'm afraid most think that amusement parks cater to enthusiasts, when in reality it's just the opposite. *** Edited 5/25/2006 6:02:20 PM UTC by Coastern3rd***