Intamin Bashing
I never said that you would die on any coaster, but that Intamin seems to be associated with many fatalities at many different parks. Could you also show me your facts for the "1 in 500 million chance that you could die" on a coaster. You have "obviously" done your homework with a stat like that.
"Deaths are acceptable, but **** happens." Tell that to one of the families that has lost a loved one, I bet they will not agree with you.
No, it was not apparent that you were being sarcastic about your "elephant attack" theory. It is difficult to tell when an idiot is being sarcastic, or is just being just plain dumb. And yes, you are as sharp as a spoon.
I never said that I don't like Intamin, in fact, they make some of the best rides today IMO, and I enjoy them all, but it is difficult to argue that their safety history is better than that of B & M. Whereas Intamin builds some of the best coasters with advanced technology, their history is like a black cloud. So Intamin builds state-of-the-art rides, but it seems that their success of building unique rides has come at the expense of some people's lives.
Intamin rides that I know of where people have died:
Flight Commander- PKI
Drop Zone- PGA
Hydro
S:ROS
... and there may be more.
Telling people to shut up because you don't agree with their opinion is childish. If you don't like what we say, don't come here.
... I'm glad school starts soon.
Beer and golf Thursday thru Monday, Cedar Point & beer, Tuesday and Wednesday.
Can you see One-Eyed-Willie from the top of Magnum?
Browntggrr said:
Telling people to shut up because you don't agree with their opinion is childish. If you don't like what we say, don't come here.
AGREED!
arearew, you DO make some very good points though. However, the comparison that you are making between amusement park ride accidents and car accidents is a bit flawed seeing that 9 chances out of 10, the car accident is because of your own ignorance. Like you said, no death is acceptable and yes, crap does happen, but (as Browntggr put it) "Continuing to have injuries and deaths, although a very small percentage of them, will ruin the plans of coaster manufacturors that are indeed safe." Why? Because people will simply stop riding them.
Back in 1999 when 4 people died on coasters in 1 week, that was a case of when "**** happens." This is a different situation because there is a pattern amongst several rides with similar restraint systems. If you have a blind love towards the company and its achievements then great, more power to you, but to claim that nothing should be done to correct the situation is just asinine. *** Edited 8/28/2004 12:09:15 AM UTC by CP_bound***
-Gannon
-B.S. Civil Engineering, Purdue University
Joe Brinkman
Browntggrr said:
Intamin rides that I know of where people have died:
Flight Commander- PKI
Never heard of Flight Commander, when was it built and closed?
OK, one step at a time. I thought it was very, incredibly, ridiculously obvious, but here.
That is not an actual fact and the exhaggeration is heavily implied.
Read that twice.
All set?
Here is a fact, though: The chances that you will die on a rollercoaster, are very, extremely, ridiculously low.
OK?
"Tell that to one of the families that has lost a loved one, I bet they will not agree with you."
Well gee whiz, death isn't really a generally warm and pleasant thing. It's not exactly restricted to just amusement park deaths. When you make an argument like that, I would assume you don't condone the usage of cars which kill thousands of Americans each year?
"No, it was not apparent that you were being sarcastic about your "elephant attack" theory. "
1. Yes, it was, if you took English in high school and couple that with common sense.
2. In lieu of you calling what was first heavily implied and then later implictly stated that the "elephant attack" remark was sarcasm yet you call it a "theory," it's safe to assume you fail test #1.
I mean come on man... AN ELEPHANT ATTACK? YOU DIDN'T THINK IT WAS SARCASM?
But I didn't post here to get into some pissing contest with some random tool, just state an opinion.
"Whereas Intamin builds some of the best coasters with advanced technology, their history is like a black cloud. So Intamin builds state-of-the-art rides, but it seems that their success of building unique rides has come at the expense of some people's lives."
That's definitely a fair statement and I totally agree with that. What I'm getting at is you either get on the ride or don't, but even though Intamin may have a bad track record compared to other companies, but they're also pushing the envelope harder and faster giving their fans what they want. A few people have died, but when you look at the sheer numbers of survivors to non-survivors, this isn't something we should be up in arms about. If you don't want to ride it, don't. HOPEFULLY INTAMIN WILL SEAL UP ANY PROBLEMS THEY HAVE, SO LET'S SUPPORT THEM.
"Telling people to shut up because you don't agree with their opinion is childish. If you don't like what we say, don't come here."
I was speaking figuratively. I simply find it ridiculous that the hardcore fans are always demanding higher and faster and the company gives it to them, yet denounce the rides later on because they're closed to repair time or whatnot and because of their inconvenience, they denounce Intamin. THAT is hypocritical and stupid. If you fall into this category then yes, I bid you to shuttup. I'm a bit passionate about this because I love coasters and I love rides and I love CP, but whenever any accidents happen the whole thing gets sensationalized and everyone loses in the end. That was where that comment was aimed at and nowhere else, and I did NOT mean it for everyone with a different opinion than my own, only the above mentioned. Again, I thought this was clear. But there you go. Read it twice. Take five. Read it again. Ready set GO.
"... I'm glad school starts soon. "
Irony is when someone talks about acting childish and then slips snide remarks at the end of their posts. Don't waste my time anymore with your posts, brownwhatever, I don't want to spend time watering them down for you so they're easier to understand. Getting in personal fights with text on a computer screen isn't generally my thing. And please don't tell me about school, I've got 3 degrees. Arguing the usage of basic literary tools doesn't interest me.
Onwards.
"However, the comparison that you are making between amusement park ride accidents and car accidents is a bit flawed seeing that 9 chances out of 10, the car accident is because of your own ignorance."
OK, I'll accept that the situation is different because you don't have "control." However, what I was getting at was the fact that despite the fact that you're MUCH more likely to die getting in your car to go to work than to ride TTD, we will all gleefully hop into our cars anyhow without even thinking twice. Hell, once. And if 9/10 of the car accidents you've driven in are due to your own ignorance, I'd suggest massive amounts of driving school
"Why? Because people will simply stop riding them."
But see, they won't. I mean if it gets bad, yes there will be a huge fallout. You and I and everyone else in here knows about rollercoaster fatalities because we're amusement park fans. I would guess that 90% of the people in a park on a given day would have no idea what to say if you asked them what they knew about fatalities. There's no other way to put it; people just don't know, and they don't care. Read: bungie jumping, racing, skydiving...
"When you start resorting to yelling at other people on an internet message board because they don't agree with you would be your cue to shut off the computer and go do something else for a little while."
Read above. The "shuttup" comment was directed at hypocrites who will whine and cry about safety on TTD and then berate Cedar Point for not pushing the envelope further. Are you that person? Shuttup. Are you not? Cool.
"If you have a blind love towards the company and its achievements then great, more power to you, but to claim that nothing should be done to correct the situation is just asinine."
1. I love the coasters Intamin makes because they push the envelope. That's not "blind love."
2. WHERE did I say nothing should be done? Don't put words in my mouth, especially when I said this: "I would like to see Intamin's rides do better, but at the same time I think they deserve some slack cut for them "
And yes, in case someone didn't understand, "do better" = "have better safety record."
Some of you are taking what I said way out of proportion. I want Intamin to improve their safety record, I think everyone who knows the situation does. What I DON'T want are people denouncing them because they push the envelope as we request them to. There is always danger in innovation. Improve the safety, yes! Talk crap about the creators of the ride, no! *** Edited 8/28/2004 12:48:55 AM UTC by arearew***
The additional exclamation points don't reinforce your point. Furthermore, and this might be a really radical idea, but I'm pretty sure John Q. Guest doesn't have to be an engineer to know that when someone falls out of a ride and dies, that's bad. And for the record, the Vekoma giant inverted boomerangs, have not killed anyone to date (though I suppose they'd actually have to run in order to do that).
cotton_eye_joe92 said:
Why don't you just take a few years to study engineering and just design them yourself and see how good YOUR coasters are!!! They'd probably be worse than the Vekoma Boomerangs!!!!!! So If I were you complainers and whiners I'd shut the hell up!!!!
Dude... that's not even the argument. No one here is going to stop riding them. You've made the argument that Intamin doesn't deserve the negativity, and the response people have made is that death is not acceptable. If you want to argue the point, argue that. Disputing one's testicular fortitude and chest thumping have exactly nothing to do with the safety of a ride.
arearew said:
Then don't ride them.
All of you need to relax and stop the name calling. Otherwise you're getting a digital timeout and extra homework. Tell someone to shut up again and I'll bounce you like USA basketball out of the Olympics.
Jeff - Advocate of Great Great Tunnels™ - Co-Publisher - PointBuzz - CoasterBuzz - Blog - Music
CP_bound said:
I tend to agree with Intamin's rides being more forceful than most, if not all B&M's, but what about Magnum? If you happen to get a trimless ride, the ride back on the return hills is pure insanity with way more insane ejector air than I've felt on any other ride.
On a trimless ride, those last 3 hills on Magnum knocks the bajezus out of either of the S:RoS's bunny's, including the final hop at SFNE where the rider was thrown.
Gemini 100- 6/11/01
B&M vs. Intamin
B&M has seven types of coasters (flyer, floorless, stand-up, hyper, sit down, inverted, and vertical drop) They all have the same locking mechenisms and similar restrants. The designs of their rides also are researched fully and locked down in steel.
Intamin on the other hand were rushed into to building bigger and bader coasters by parks, like Cedar Point and Six Flags. Intamin gives but the rides are designed and built too quickly. 3 years to build TTD isn't all the that long to use never before seen technology. What I'm trying to is Intamin's mistake was not taking their time? But it is also the park's fault for rushing them. Rushing things causes bad things to happen. Driving in a hurry causes many accidents.
I'm not certain on these facts but if I'm right the parks that ordered these rides from Intamin were stack for jumping the gun. But hey look at the Golden Ticket Awards, Intamin knows how to design a good coaster!
-Craig-
2008:Magnum XL-200 | Top Thrill Dragster
2007:Corkscrew | Magnum XL-200 | Maverick
There are many other companies that build amusement rides that do not have the reputation that Intamin has.
Once you take off the rose-colored glasses and see that their is a safety issue here you may understand what everyone else is saying.
Do I dislike Intamin, no. Will I still ride Intamin rides, yes. Will I hold on, hell ya.
People go to amusement parks to have fun, not to be guinea pigs for any company that wants to "push the envelope harder and faster giving the fans what they want." The water dummies are to be tested, not human beings. We don't want to go faster at the potential cost of a life, the way that you are putting it is that Intamin is willing to take that calculated risk.
Intamin doesn't want that, nobody does, but it has happened to them at a much faster pace than many other companies.
Flight Commander was a "flight simulator". A flat/ spinning ride where you sat in a pod that lifted off the ground and rotated. You had control of the pod to go: up, down, and barrel roll to the right and left. The lady (who was drunk) sqeezed out of her restraint and fell to the ground. It operated 1990-1995.http://www.pkicentral.com/Parkinfo/parkhistory/photos/robert/5.jpg
Sorry Jeff for the trouble.
Beer and golf Thursday thru Monday, Cedar Point & beer, Tuesday and Wednesday.
Can you see One-Eyed-Willie from the top of Magnum?
Jeff said:Tell someone to shut up again and I'll bounce you like USA basketball out of the Olympics.
They're not out yet, just playing for bronze.
Comparing coaster riding to driving is apples to oranges. Do I put my life in the hands of engineers? Yes, but in a car its my choice to buckle up or not. It's my choice to driv e wrecklessly or safely. My safety on a coaster is completely in the hands of the designer. The only acceptable fatality rate is 0.0. Will I continue to ride, sure. Does the fact that its new technology remove any blame from the shoulders of the designer, NOT A CHANCE.
And don't say the federal government won't step in. Look at the number of food poisoning deaths each year. Miniscule compared to the number of people that eat every day, yet the government has requirements set on all types of products ranging from meat to dairy to how the crops are grown. Government regulation is the worst thing that could happen to the coaster industry because it will cause innovation to come to a stand still. Will rides be safer? Yes, but the cost of breaking barriers will be too high to safely do it.
spelling *** Edited 8/28/2004 5:46:07 AM UTC by JuggaLotus***
Goodbye MrScott
John
-Eagle-
Smoking Marijuana isn't a bad thing or even a good one, like everything else, its what you make of it.
The purpose of comparison to coaster riding and driving was not about the details of the two, but of the chances of dying when you get into one or the other, just the pure numbers. People are up in arms about coaster safety to the point that they're saying CP should never order Intamin rides again over their fatality rate because deaths at amusement parks are sensationalized, yet the chance you're going to die driving a car is vastly higher.
"And don't say the federal government won't step in. Look at the number of food poisoning deaths each year."
The federal government won't look at one or two very unfortunate deaths a year as sensationally as some of us do. The federal government looks at statistics, not knee-jerk reactions.
"Miniscule compared to the number of people that eat every day, yet the government has requirements set on all types of products ranging from meat to dairy to how the crops are grown."
LOTS of people die or get sick from food poisoning, that ratio is going to be much higher than coaster survivors/fatalities. As far as WHY the government regulated... "The Jungle," by Sinclair. If Intamin or any other manufacturer has standards as disgustingly low as the food industry did at the time of that book's writing, then they would most DEFINITELY deserve hard federal regulations.
But anyhow I catch your drift, the food industry was just a bad choice to make an example from.
"We don't want to go faster at the potential cost of a life"
Excellent! Then don't ride any of the Intamin rides and you can stop complaining and being afraid of death. Watch that use of "we," though, not everyone is so consumed with fear that they would make a statement like the one you just made when the chances of harm are so low. ()Stick to the safe stuff, I'll be interested to see when we start getting giga coasters from the other compaines! ()
But at any rate, I'm glad you've taken your stance. Let the rest of "us" take our chances on the big bad death machines. We'll let you know how the ride was afterwards.
What a joke.
On a more general level, the posts I've made aren't about saying "a couple of deaths here and there are OK" or "Intamin shouldn't get a slap on the wrist," it's "Well, we want taller and faster and we're starting to see some consequences. The chances of dying on coasters is still incredibly remotely low when you get past the sensationalistic attitude towards amusement park deaths. From an engineering standpoint, there are always going to be hiccups in new technology which will equate to downtime. People might get hurt or killed, but Intamin has taken steps to keep this from happening again. Should we say things such as 'CP should never buy an Intamin ride again!' or give in to the sensationalistic attitude and say 'One rider out of MILLIONS died, the ride is not TRULY safe and should be DESTROYED!' or speak out of petty annoyance 'TTD has too much downtime, it's a LEMON!' or should we say 'Intamin is giving us some awesome rides, they're having hiccups, they're fixing them. They've had some safety issues, they're responding immediately to them. Let's support them if not just because they're the company that's making our height/speed coaster dreams come true.'?"
FWIW, my argument was never directly about people crying because of deaths, it was for people crying about the sort of downtime TTD has seen. *** Edited 8/28/2004 1:27:43 PM UTC by arearew***
Well then what is your point? Telling people to "shut up" just because you don't agree with them isn't a point.
On a more general level, the posts I've made aren't about saying "a couple of deaths here and there are OK"
Jeff - Advocate of Great Great Tunnels™ - Co-Publisher - PointBuzz - CoasterBuzz - Blog - Music
PEACE
Now, how often is an amusement ride responsible for an injury?
It's all about what standards the engineering is held to. There is some acceptance for car accidents to happen and cause injury, however, the general population (excluding you, apparently, arearew) does hold a higher standard to amusement rides and their engineering. The only acceptable margin of error is 0%.
Rich G / PTC99
Comprehension of what? You're still not making any point.
arearew said:
The lack of ability for basic comprehension on this site is staggering, even for an internet forum.
Jeff - Advocate of Great Great Tunnels™ - Co-Publisher - PointBuzz - CoasterBuzz - Blog - Music
"How safe are roller coasters? Statistically, the news isn't especially alarming. From 1987 to 2000, an average of 4.5 riders died on amusement-park rides every year, according to the Consumer Protection Safety Commission. Under the standard deaths-per-rider-miles formula, amusement-park rides appear to be slightly safer than cars but more than ten times as dangerous as trains, planes, or buses."
Of course, that's based on ALL rides. If you just used Intamin's - with their track record - I bet you'd find that your chances of dying on them - per mile travelled - are a good bit higher than in a car. Not that that makes them inherently dangerous, but I just thought I'd point that out ...
Age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill.
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