Intamen's Engineering

As a mechanical engineer, I have to question at what point does Intamin take responsibility for their poor design choices. Example #1 - Excellerator was down for much of the season last year, the trains have already been retrofitted and the structure had to be reinforced. Example #2 - Volcano ran for nearly a year at 1/2 capacity because the launch couldn't handle the full trains. Case #3 - Wicked Twister ran at partial power to because of structural problems. And now we have TTD. I know all companies have issues, and this is a "one of a kind ride" (excluding excellerator) but this seems to be a pattern.

I don't buy the arguement the the ride is so complicated and advanced that these issues should be expected. I work for an aerospace company (design and manufacture of jet engines). If we had this type of track record, we would have been out of business a long time ago. And yes, a jet engine exceeds TTD in complexity, power and safety (of our product stops, them plane falls).

At what point does Cedar Fair either start legal action or at least stop using them as a supplier?

I have ridden the ride (opening day) and is was a great ride.

By the way, is there a spell check on this? I am good with numbers, not spelling.

Intamin.

Don't we have enough of these topics already though, stating TTD and Intamin have problems?

And I don't think CP or CF will ever stop using rides from Intamin, they build huge rides rather cheaply and build good, highly ranked too. The only way I see them stoping buying from them is when TTD falls over (not gonna happen)

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"Scream early because once you reach 420 feet, no one will hear you!"-TOP THRILL DRAGSTER
*** This post was edited by TopThrillDude 6/8/2003 12:35:44 PM ***

I've wondered about Cedar Fair's position with Intamin, but I didn't ask at CoasterMania, as I feel it would go beyond what they're able to discuss.

When it comes down to building a roller coaster, you can simulate some of it with computers, and you can build 'test' versions of things, such as motors, or braking systems, etc.

But when it comes down to actually building the real thing, you only get to build ONE. And whatever happens when it goes up is what you get. They're not in a position to say, "Oh, that design idea didn't work. Let's tear it down and try again." It's there to stay.

And with being one of the first designs of this magnitude, there's going to be issues. Things are going to break, or not work as expected, or need to be adjusted. It takes time.

I'm not an engineer (yet), and I certainly have no experience in the design of jet engines, so if I'm wrong on this, let me know. When designing a jet engine, simulations can be run, and you can build 'test' versions of things... but then a prototype can be built, and this is where things start to split. The prototype can be tested, and tweaked, and etc. before going out into the real world. So the downtime of testing takes place internally.

But with a roller coaster, the testing IS the real world. And when downtime occurs, everyone experiences it. Yes, I don't like Dragster being down, but I also understand that the methods and technology being used in it are new to the amusement industry, and therefore lead to problems not detectable in simulations.

Like I said, I could be way off... but that's my stance on it.

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18 straight years of real thrills and counting...
Being watched? http://www.lavasoftusa.com [Support forums moderator]

The issue is testing. You can simulate certain aspects of a design, and with the proper care and equipment you can get it right.

In our testing program, we will spend millions of dollars building 1 prototype and testing all aspect of the design. But before that, we test each individual system to ensure that when it is assembled, it works.

The hydraulic launch system could have been tested (should have been tested) before delivery to CP. There are many ways to test this type of system without building the entire ride.

We test our first prototype using a "test cell" where we can simulate any environmental condition. Once this is completed, we build several more prototypes for other testing including including bird stikes (using either dead geese or special blocks of a Jello like substance).

At the ride talk at coastermania (I was at the second meeting), Monty Jasper made a comment about the concern about the Ohio summer heat and what it would do the the hydraulic system. Again, where is the testing?

If you are going into Engineering consider materials or welding engineering. Both are high demand and high paying careers.

SP - Xcelerator, Intamin, manufacturer

and the system thats on TTD is around 10,000hp, while Xcel only uses 2,000, so there is an issue in itself intamin had to work out to try and bring to this ride. Its not easy trying to get a 10,000hp drum spinning every 45seconds-1minute, as they originally wanted to.

Computer Engineering... might double major with Electrical.

There's also the job of keeping the project secret. If Intamin were to build a 400-foot test ride, there'd be some attention to it.

For $25 million, they probably ran every test they can think of to test. But there's always going to be that one test that can't be simulated, and that's the "real world" test.

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18 straight years of real thrills and counting...
Being watched? http://www.lavasoftusa.com [Support forums moderator]

Not sure, but jet engines have been around and took plenty of more time to develop than TTD and it's components. While 3 years and $25 million seem like a lot (and they are for the coaster industry), I bet much more time and cash goes into designing jet engines, simply because it is a much broader based industry with quite a bit more demand than roller coasters. Just to stick with the jet example, many full scale and working engines are produced and tested before the first one is sold, because so many are eventually sold. TTD isn't going to be mass produced and sold to all kinds of parks, it's a one time deal. The coaster industry is quite unique when you think about it.

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CP 2K3: 6

How many times has this been stated-

find another company that can reliably make a 120 mph, 400 foot coaster and show me that it works without flaws and I'll shut right up.

Xcelerator was down due to mistakes that KNOTTS MADE, not Intamin. Most of the problems caused last summer were due to the launch mechanism overheating. They have since installed 4 air conditioners inside the launch room and the problems are now gone. Besides the structural problems, Xcel has had unreal uptime for a prototype. I'd venture to say that this year its had over 98% uptime, not counting the structural problems. We all know that Intamin has had problems with its rides, especially with the support structures, but as I stated at the top of my post- find someone else who can do it reliably for the same price and I'll start blaming Intamin.

S&S probably could get something like Xcel and Drag going, but with the problems they've experienced on Dodonpa and Hypersonic, I'd venture to say that something on Dragsters scale would have had twice as many problems... Also, theres the capacity issue. Running at full capacity, an S&S can't even break 600, Dragsters already done that and with fine tuning they should eventually dip into 1000.

Hey I got it...Why not just put a jet engine on the back of TTD.

;-)

hey wait a minute...I say we never let S&S into Cedar Point Again. After all we all know what happened on the last great achievement Vertigo.

Use a steam launch like on an aircraft carrier....

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'Welcome to Alaska!'

"Alaska?? Nobody said we were going to Alaska!!"

Using a steam launch was brought up at the Q&A at Coastermania. Monty said the main reason for not using steam is because of the need for a large power plant required to produce it. Remember, aircraft carriers have four nuclear reactors to provide their steam.

I'm no expert (wink), but Nimitz Class carriers only have two reactors, but the steam from that is also used to run four main engines and eight turbine-driven electric generators. As a matter of fact the steam load from a 'cat-shot' is almost nominal compared to the major loads. While a nuclear reactor is impractical, if you had a decent accumulator, it wouldn't take much more than a couple of those locomotives from the CP&LE Railroad. Maybe get Doc Brown to make up some more of those green, yellow, and red logs and we can really superheat that steam from the locomotives.

Besides, the steam shot idea was a joke....It wouldn't take a reactor to run one, but a big boiler of some kind would be required, and that would be a PR and tree huggin hippie nightmare.

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'Welcome to Alaska!'

"Alaska?? Nobody said we were going to Alaska!!"
*** This post was edited by teejmeister 6/8/2003 4:01:02 PM ***

There is a nuke plant off of 2! ;)

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Ed Markey is my anti-drug.
Rollercoasters have proven to cause brain damage in stupid politicians. DAR-HOOT

trips to CP:6 Dragster:2 MFer:6 Magnum: 13 Running with the bulls for a 15 minutes dragster wait, Must be June!

Correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't Intamin build a full scale version of the ride over in Switzerland.
*** This post was edited by Cedar Po!nt 6/8/2003 4:07:35 PM ***

i belive it was only the launch section, and brakes next instead of going verticle, but maybe they did make the ride in their back yard.

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Ed Markey is my anti-drug.
Rollercoasters have proven to cause brain damage in stupid politicians. DAR-HOOT

trips to CP:6 Dragster:2 MFer:6 Magnum: 13 Running with the bulls for a 15 minutes dragster wait, Must be June!

I thought i read on the Cedar Point webpage from an interview that Intamin did in fact build a full scale model. Just a quesion here, 99% of the people here defend CP and TTD like no other, what were you guys saying about Six Flags during X's opening year?

Arrow never wanted to build a 4D that big in the first place. But SF & MM insisted they do it without it ever being proven on a smaller scale. That was the definition of a cluster**** if there ever was one. The thing still can't get any capacity.

Now look at what Cear Fair did. They went and built Xcelerator and tested it out in a warm climate. Yes it did have downtime as expected. They worked the kinks out and it's running fine now. Cedar Fair decided to go ahead and double the size seeing how they knew that Xcel would work fine. Why anyone is surprised that Dragster is having "growing" pains is beyond me. You build a ride of that scale anywhere your're going to have downtime no matter what.

Give it 2-3 months and it'll be running like a well oiled machine, no worries. :)

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"Scream early, because once you reach 420 feet no one will hear you."-Rob Decker

I thought aircraft carriers had two reactors as well until I talked to someone I used to work with that served four years in the US Navy aboard an aircraft carrier that corrected me and told me the one he was on had four. The Navy site lists the Nimitz class as having two and the Enterprise as having eight. Since my friend served on the USS Enterprise, maybe he didn't know what he was talking about. :-)

Plus, I don't see Cedar Point issuing a statement like this one:

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Note: X wil be closed every Wednesday while workers perform weekly scheduled ride maintenance. The Park sincerely regrets any inconvenience as a result of the once-a-week ride closure.

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And putting the following as an opening date: January 2002 & Re-Opened August 2002.

Give it time. As with anything new, there's unforseen problems that have to be worked out. Give them credit, too; it was open for opening day.

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18 straight years of real thrills and counting...
Being watched? http://www.lavasoftusa.com [Support forums moderator]