Height requirements...borderline cases

Wat?

You got me by a minute. Next weekend I can't go either. Your trip is going to be great I'm sure of it!!

redsfan are you drunk? lol

The PointGuru said:
...You won't find much help with ASTM either. Generally speaking most professional associations walk a fine line when setting guidelines. They almost never make specific recommendations on park policies like height restrictions which is why you will find many of the same rides in different parks with different height restrictions.

ASTM is a voluntary association, and the F24 committee is made up mostly of industry experts who have been at this for a very long time. I can tell you that there is a particular section of the design standard that has been held up for *years* because there isn't enough agreement about how to codify what the industry has been doing for decades. But let me tell you this: Most of the guidelines in ASTM F 770, which is the Operations standard, boil down to, "Follow the manufacturer's requirements." The manufacturers, then, follow ASTM F 2291, which is the design standard. The most important point in there is that the ride has to undergo a hazard analysis, in which the risks and hazards associated with the ride have to be addressed. Any risk has to be eliminated, mitigated, or assumed, and many different strategies can be employed to manage those risks. The ASTM model assumes that in general the manufacturer will handle the ride analysis and provide guidance to the owner for the safe operation of the ride. But that does not preclude any operator from conducting his own analysis and implementing risk management strategies that go beyond those specified by the manufacturer.

It's true, most of the time height is being used as a surrogate for age, because most kids don't carry ID cards, and besides, age is being used as a surrogate for maturity in a lot of cases. The big problem is that the line has to be drawn somewhere, and it's not appropriate to allow a random ride operator to make that decision. Taking it out of the ride operator's hands and having a rather inflexible policy may make a lot of people angry, but it also eliminates the judgement calls and makes it so that when there is an incident, it's one less thing the operator has to worry about.

Pretty sure ASTM doesn't have a position on what size shoes kids need to wear in order to meet their standards. Nice try though.

Funny you should mention that. Not so long ago I actually sat in on the meeting of a design standard subcommittee which was discussing standards for shoe heights and hairstyles when measuring rider heights. Essentially it was going to be a requirement that manufacturers take shoe height into consideration when setting height requirements. Ultimately the decision was made that the manufacturer was already responsible for doing this and that specific language about shoe height wasn't really necessary. But, in fact, it is something that the ASTM committee has, in fact, considered.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Captain Hawkeye said:
If a kid has a wristband--meaning that the office says they are 48 inches (or whatever)-- why are ride ops measuring? Do they measure better than the office? If so, why is the office measuring?

Not sure if you missed the previous anecdotes about ride ops finding kids whose parents had an older child measured, and then switched the wristband to the kid who was too short. The people at the ride are still responsible for verifying that whoever comes through their line meets the requirements to ride. It seems the wristband mostly serves to mitigate the "too close call" situations when a kid is right on the border.

Now why would a person who appears to hate CP join a CP fan site. The logic behind it is beyond me. *cough*Pointguru*cough*

Relevant

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3uq800/

Because this is what is wrong with posters on this site. I love the park as much as everyone else on this site. I don't like how poorly the park was run in the past and managements refusal to improve antiquated and just poor policy. The fact that some posters can't separate the two things is obviously the cause of a large amount of animosity towards me.

I agree with RideMan 100%. The thing is, all he did was rephrase exactly what I said in my post. "Design standards held up for years because of no agreement". Absolutely, I said that is because no one wants to step on another parks policies. I don't doubt committees talked about shoe and hairstyles but you also indicated ASTM guidelines usually boil down to manufacturer guidelines and you claim manufacturers already take those into account. So what you are saying is it's a perpetual cycle of shifting responsibility between ASTM and manufacturers. Ultimately it comes down to the park setting their own restrictions. Any policy that is not quantitative leaves itself open for litigation in the future. The size of someone's shoes or long spiky or poofy hair can alter the appearance of height. Manufacturers would argue the could never take those things into consideration when setting safety standards.

thedevariouseffect said:
Relevant

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3uq800/

Now that's funny.

thedevariouseffect said:
Relevant

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3uq800/

Fixed it for you. :)

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3uq97d/

Ffuuu haha

http://cdn.alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/okay-okay-l.png

Figures PointGuru is a dumb-a$$ lawyer, annoying as hell and full of BS.

The only fair way to treat these borderline height cases is exactly the way CP does it. If you start to make judgement calls you open up a can of worms because everyone's judgement is different. No doubt you will have complaints like "my son was close enough to ride Corkscrew but they turned him away from Magnum". Either get bonked in the head with the metal measuring bar and ride or you are too short and can't. The park can't have control over sole thickness of shoes, but they can make the height requirement accurate and consistant for everyone with what a guest is wearing that particular day. Seems very fair to me and some kids will just have to learn to overcome disappointment and suck it up.

I'm also sure PointGuru knows that there will be some of his "kind" circling the park like vultures, ready to represent the parents in a lawsuit, if a kid does get thrown from a ride who is 1/2" too short but rode because of a judgement call from a ride op. These "punk" ride ops, as Guru calls them, actually do a great job in ensuring riders follow the rules and are safe. Maybe following rules has something to do with CP's excellent safety record, which is at the top of the industry.

^THANK YOU!!!

Pete said:
Figures PointGuru is a dumb-a$$ lawyer, annoying as hell and full of BS.

Unless his ambiguous statement was meant to exaggerate his position. :)

Attorney? Maybe. 13yr old punk in his mom's basement wearing batman underoos? Probably.

RideMan said:
The big problem is that the line has to be drawn somewhere, and it's not appropriate to allow a random ride operator to make that decision. Taking it out of the ride operator's hands and having a rather inflexible policy may make a lot of people angry, but it also eliminates the judgement calls and makes it so that when there is an incident, it's one less thing the operator has to worry about.

I agree with that. Some process needs to be in place to determine who can ride and who cannot. Those who cannot may well be angry/disappointed. And that will be true no matter how that determination is made. Telling them they cannot ride because they are not x" tall will likely not make them any more angry than telling them its because of their body shape/size, they do not fit in the restraints properly to ride safely. For most people it will be blah, blah, blah, you cannot ride.

At the margins, maybe some people would feel better about the more detailed determination. But at what cost? That determination will be made by high school and college kids who do not have training necessary to make that determination. And it will in part be a subjective determination meaning that depending on who is at the ride entry, you will get different results. Someone who rides Blue Streak in the morning may not be able to ride in the evening. And people will complain of favoritism/discrimnation when one person is allowed to ride yet another similar body size/shape person is not. The more detailed determinations would also take more time.

In terms of litigation, I suspect amusement park legal folks would be happy to deal with lawsuits by guests for not being able to ride based on the well advertised/understood height requirements to the extent they don't have to deal with litigation brought when someone falls out of a ride or is otherwise hurt because a ride op make a bad judgment call on who to let ride.

What most people keep forgetting is Soak City or Kalahari or any other waterpark don't have these same height arguments with guest or worry about hamburgers in shoes. That is because bare foot measurement is not subjective. That proves my argument. Instead the park leaves subjective judgments to teenagers who aren't paid to use their brains and don't have enough common sense contact a supervisor when a problem occurs.

The PointGuru said:
The fact that some posters can't separate the two things is obviously the cause of a large amount of animosity towards me.

No, the issue is that you talk out of your ass, and that annoys people. Being a parole officer doesn't make you an expert in park operations.

The PointGuru said:
What most people keep forgetting is Soak City or Kalahari or any other waterpark don't have these same height arguments with guest or worry about hamburgers in shoes. That is because bare foot measurement is not subjective. That proves my argument. Instead the park leaves subjective judgments to teenagers who aren't paid to use their brains and don't have enough common sense contact a supervisor when a problem occurs.

Yes, because as a park goer, you'd want to stand there and wait while a supervisor walks over from the other corner of the park. You'd also want your kid to have to remove their shoes at every single ride.

Think, then post.

I do agree with PG about the shoe thing, that the only way to be fair and have exact measurement is to do it barefoot and I dont think that most people would argue that . BUT there is no way that taking off shoes is ever going to happen. We had the Soak City issue last year. My son was able to ride ID and DT in the park because of his shoes and got the wrist band but when we went to Soak City they measured him without his shoes and he couldnt go on some of the slides. We didnt complain about it we understood and were just thankful he got to ride what he could.