Extended Closure

Lets also not forget that it has to make 3 passes over the LSMs vs. Red Forces single launch. Way more chance for minuscule misalignments to compound.

Grantw:

Lets also not forget that it has to make 3 passes over the LSMs vs. Red Forces single launch. Way more chance for minuscule misalignments to compound.

Amazing we're acting like clearance between stators in a fixed position horizontally and vertically and a ride vehicle which should be in a fixed position horizontally and vertically relative to the direction of travel is excusable because they interact with one another thrice per ride cycle. Ironic considering the same people defending Zamperla on this were the same ones (rightfully) ripping Intamin for clearance issue on a 20 year old ride vehicle on the same ride. Clearance tolerances and kinetic energy aren't some mythical concept that couldn't have been accounted for. If the arguement is "yes but this ride does it at faster speeds than [insert your favorite swing launch coaster example here]," then I still haven't seen a good explanation as to why a company that prior to this project only had experience with forces many multiples below what TT2 has was even considered for this project to begin with.

Because of Cedar Point’s (Fair’s) clearly lack of thoughtful analytical processes. This park is constantly spending R&D and capital expenditure on projects that fail. Not just coasters, but family attractions. Forbidden Frontier, Snake River Expedition, Shoot the Rapids, TTD, Wicked Twister, Dinosaurs Alive. They have had 6 failed installations since 2002. Hundreds of millions of dollars of lost capital on stupid decision making. Either they are too gusty and try to push the envelope too far or they are too focused on trying to be like Disney by bringing in story driven attractions. They need to just go back to the basics and when in doubt add some people eating B&Ms.

italianstallion:

...why a company that prior to this project only had experience with forces many multiples below what TT2 has was even considered for this project to begin with.

This argument is among the most nonsensical, in my opinion. It assumes Company A cannot or will not hire subject matter experts to expand that company's capabilities. And also, wasn't Junior Gemini Intamin's tallest roller coaster at one time?

SRE123:

TTD, Wicked Twister, Dinosaurs Alive

LOL, wut?

I never liked TTD, and it obviously had more than its share of issues over the years, but "failed attraction" is a bit of a stretch, no? And Dinosaurs Alive was a failed attraction?!? DA was never supposed to be a permanent attraction.

djDaemon:

italianstallion:

...why a company that prior to this project only had experience with forces many multiples below what TT2 has was even considered for this project to begin with.

This argument is among the most nonsensical, in my opinion. It assumes Company A cannot or will not hire subject matter experts to expand that company's capabilities. And also, wasn't Junior Gemini Intamin's tallest roller coaster at one time?

Incremental steps from Jr. Gemini to their first 200 foot coaster over a 20 year period is a poor retort to the "many multiples" argument I was making, which was a retort to your argument about a 20% increase in kinetic energy not being trivial (to which I agree). A better retort would've been to point out Intamin going from 200 feet to 400 feet/75 mph to 120 mph in a 4 year period; we all know how those four years would set up the industry for decades of disasters and lawsuits.

Your argument "it assumes Company A cannot or will not hire subject matter experts to expand that company's capabilities" is the nonsensical argument here. We're not talking about Company A, we're talking about Zamperla, and Zamperla either A) didn't do that at all and worked in house outside of their capabilities or B) hired the wrong experts who were clearly working outside of their capabilities.

SRE123:

Because of Cedar Point’s (Fair’s) clearly lack of thoughtful analytical processes.

And I believe this is the correct answer. And as you said, this ends up costing them many multiples more in the long run than if they just paid extra and invested in the right companies and products on the front end.

I remain thoroughly confused what everyone is even arguing about at this point

Yes, that ^^^.

Well to distill it down...

• CF took a calculated risk that IMHO made sense at the time, and it backfired, at least in the short term.
• Despite having done a lot of good things with this attraction, Zamperla screwed the proverbial pooch.
• There's plenty of egg to cover all faces, but they'll most likely get it right, and this will end up being almost as forgotten as Maverick's heartline roll. I say almost because the closure is substantially longer in this case. But when it's fixed and runs reliably for decades to come, it will end up a relatively obscure historical footnote.

Incidentally i do agree with the point that there has been a good chunk of expended capital on unexpectedly short-lived attractions, not to mention other missteps that are still operating (windseeker vs starflyer).

italianstallion:

Amazing we're acting like clearance between stators in a fixed position horizontally and vertically and a ride vehicle which should be in a fixed position horizontally and vertically relative to the direction of travel is excusable because they interact with one another thrice per ride cycle. Ironic considering the same people defending Zamperla on this were the same ones (rightfully) ripping Intamin for clearance issue on a 20 year old ride vehicle on the same ride. Clearance tolerances and kinetic energy aren't some mythical concept that couldn't have been accounted for. If the arguement is "yes but this ride does it at faster speeds than [insert your favorite swing launch coaster example here]," then I still haven't seen a good explanation as to why a company that prior to this project only had experience with forces many multiples below what TT2 has was even considered for this project to begin with.

Amen.

The thrice argument is ridiculous. It's akin to parks that market their latest coaster as the "tallest, fastest" of a very specific sub-class of coaster, e.g., " tallest, fastest, hybrid launch coaster with a left turn out of the station." They are drawing distinctions without a difference.

the Zamperla apologists are focusing on a very specific feature (three launches! not two! higher speeds (in the third, and, arguably second launch)), all of which nonetheless still involve well-established train, LSM and track design features in the industry that Zamperla could -- and should -- have been anticipated and resolved a whole lot better than this.

To be clear, I think it's cool CP gave Zamperla a chance here, and I like the idea of a company growing into a larger-coaster company and creating more options and competition in the field, but I don't see how one can be intellectually honest here and not conclude this was a signficant engineering mess up. (I'd bet CP sure feels that way right now.)

djDaemon:

I never liked TTD, and it obviously had more than its share of issues over the years, but "failed attraction" is a bit of a stretch, no? And Dinosaurs Alive was a failed attraction?!? DA was never supposed to be a permanent attraction.

TTD was a failure in the sense that it closed way sooner than most coasters do. Same with WT. I did not know that about Dinosaurs Alive. But that even makes what they did to Millennium Island more sad. You’re telling me they ripped out all that vegetation for a temporary attraction? That’s genuinely short sighted thought processing.

SRE123:

Either they are too gusty and try to push the envelope too far...

Yes, because nothing pushes the envelope like... a family boat ride.

A year from now, I'm probably 75% confident that this will all be a distant memory, and no one will care about it.

I'm surprised at how folks around here don't seem to understand just how small the amusement industry is. The number of companies that build rides and push new technology is very, very small. There just aren't many players in most any space, including ticketing (which explains why Accesso is still a thing).

Clearly you missed the part where I said “Either they are too gusty and try to push the envelope too far or they are too focused on trying to be like Disney by bringing in story driven attractions.” How long did that family boat ride last? Do you think it was worth the R&D to have it only run for a few years? I wanna hear your thoughts on whether it was a worthwhile investment.

I just want to hop on quick to express my soul-wrenching loathing for Dinosaurs Alive. That had to be one of the more embarrassing installations ever at Cedar Point, and it was made worse by its steady decay and clear lack of any funding to make it even a shell of its already stupid-self in its final years. I wanted to invite every local dog in Sandusky to publicly urinate on that ugly-ass T-rex in the front of the park until it was gone. And every drunk patron from Thirsty Pony.

And then it was gone. And replaced with something awesome. My kids (and clearly lots of others) absolutely loved Forbidden Frontier. And then that Frontier got even better by the addition of the boat ride which not only was a throw-back to an beloved attraction but also a much-needed family attraction.

And after just a couple seasons they decided to just flush every ounce of that down the toilet.

Every time we ride Millennium Force, my girls remind me that they can see the playground that they loved still standing there just collecting cobwebs. Along with the rest of the island. Much like the Town Hall Museum.

Meanwhile the park seems to find value in investing in **** like this: Another "bar" that I could build for you after a quick visit to Lowes.

And I just realized this has absolutely nothing to to do with TT2.

I guess tonight I'm just a grumpy old man who is not too thrilled with where I see this park going.

This is what happens when someone brings up those stupid dinosaurs.

All of you, off my lawn, now! Even you, Coasterhawk.

I just hope that management is self aware enough to see what a lot of us here are seeing in regards to the direction the park is going in and correct course before it’s too late.

Just to add on to the rant. It's annoying to feel powerless against that direction. Filling out surveys and guest service complaints doesn't appear to make any difference, and voting with your wallet is difficult when the pass price is so cheap. I hope it never gets to the level where I consider giving up an entire season of the parts I enjoy over the diminished rides/shows/restaurant experiences.

As for the afore-mentioned family boat ride, I am just wildly speculating whether it may return in a future season in some way, shape, or form. I'm pretty certain I saw the boats down there shrink-wrapped, still on the uncharted Isle.

SRE123:

I just hope that management is self aware enough to see what a lot of us here are seeing in regards to the direction the park is going in and correct course before it’s too late.

No, they won't, because...

Hudson:
...voting with your wallet is difficult when the pass price is so cheap.

This is not picking on you, Hudson, because you're right - it's a tremendous value. But it's clear the current regime is perfectly happy with diminished per caps so long as they can squeeze every last ounce of revenue out of cheap passes. And that'll work fine, until it no longer does. That's the potential eventuality that worries me.

Plus, seeing how much autonomy has been taken away from park GMs and upper leadership post-Ouimet, I highly doubt Carrie and her team wanted the island mothballed after just a few seasons.

Yes we can fill out surveys. And so can everyone else. Maybe they see 80% of the responses include things like “I’d like to see more places for alcohol” and “No more boring boat rides” and “I’d get a pass if it was cheaper”. Once again it seems the card carrying enthusiasts are in the minority and not everyone sees the park through our tightly-strapped glasses.

Jeff:

A year from now, I'm probably 75% confident that this will all be a distant memory, and no one will care about it.

Exactly!