Arrow and CP(Conspiracy?)
Remember a few things....
1. Iron Wolf was B+M's first solo coaster but they worked for Intamin before that and designed other coasters with them so they have been working for more then 10 years.
2. Don't count out the "new" Arrow, they fired Ron Toumor (sp) and have a new style. Look at the plans for the Arrowbatic wild mouse and and I think you will agree that they finally are on the right track.
3. I think more progress has been made by Vekoma. They went from a company that did nothing but build lots of boomerangs and now they are making things like Stealth and Superman: The Ride (SFH).
1. Iron Wolf was B+M's first solo coaster but they worked for Intamin before that and designed other coasters with them so they have been working for more then 10 years.
2. Don't count out the "new" Arrow, they fired Ron Toumor (sp) and have a new style. Look at the plans for the Arrowbatic wild mouse and and I think you will agree that they finally are on the right track.
3. I think more progress has been made by Vekoma. They went from a company that did nothing but build lots of boomerangs and now they are making things like Stealth and Superman: The Ride (SFH).
Hmmm, Vekoma made Stealth? It seemed Cedar Point gave them one last chance after Magnum's flop. Snake River Falls also had to have alterations.
Steel Phantom? How many more Arrow loopers are going to close down? How many does that make now, five atleast?
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Millennium Force will be the next to sink!
Steel Phantom? How many more Arrow loopers are going to close down? How many does that make now, five atleast?
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Millennium Force will be the next to sink!
JeremyG, that is what I meant, the first coaster under the B&M name. When you branch off it is basically like starting out new. I brought this up because Arrow has been around alot longer and they seem to perfect something and then its like they lose interest in it. There is a post up about Arrow on Coasterbuzz and I said that Arrow should go back to the smaller scale coasters. They perfected these and alot of people still love them. The Demon at SFGAm was originally built in 1976 and I still love it along with many others. I am sure the Corkscrew at CP has a following also.
Arrow did well on Magnum. However, precious few Magnum clones did all that well. Basically 1 per company.
Mamba and Steel Force do pretty well, and Intamin's S:ROS and B&M's Apollo's Chariot. One great hyper per company. Arrow just nailed it first.
Mamba and Steel Force do pretty well, and Intamin's S:ROS and B&M's Apollo's Chariot. One great hyper per company. Arrow just nailed it first.
That's an iffy one. It looks like Giovanola didn't nail it first time w/ Goliath, either.
'Sides, RB isn't an out'n'back, so it's not really a Magnum clone.
Now the Nagashima coaster, that essentially is.
'Sides, RB isn't an out'n'back, so it's not really a Magnum clone.
Now the Nagashima coaster, that essentially is.
Yeah Arrow get's lucky, they made a ton of awesome coasters besides Magnum, so I would not call Magnum luck. And If you have ridden Tenn torando you would know, that Arrow without Ron Tomer is capble of great and innovative desgin work, Tomer retired and was not fired. with the Arrowbatic and Maglev launched coasters,( the first To be built this year in Japan) in Arrow's ride arrsal I expect to see a lot more arrows built in the near future. I have ridden there newer looping rides(TT,cannon Blaster) and an important fact people forget about is that Arrow's older loopers and hypers use 2nd and 3rd generation track, While the newer arrow coasters use 5th geneation modified Desperado track, which make turns and loops much smother, I would say that TT and CB are Intamin smooth, but not quite B&m smooth.
On who has made the most progress in the last ten years I would Have to say Intamin who in ten years has brought parks a ton of different and unique rides.a small list
1 typhon seacoaster
2 Superman the Escape
3 Volcano
4 SuperMan ride of Steel
5 Monta Maklya
6 MF
On who has made the most progress in the last ten years I would Have to say Intamin who in ten years has brought parks a ton of different and unique rides.a small list
1 typhon seacoaster
2 Superman the Escape
3 Volcano
4 SuperMan ride of Steel
5 Monta Maklya
6 MF
Arrow I feel has been dissed, I feel Desperado is smoother than Magnum and is a good ride no Magnum but hey you never know what you're going to get until you build it. I think alot has to do with departure of Toomer. Cedar Point loved the man or why would they have so many coasters with his name on them. Bad design not!!! Bad engineers at Arrow Yes!!! Listening to Toomer last year at Coastermania he sounded quite upset with the engineers at Arrow.
I dunno... wasn't Toomer there for Drachen Fire and Steel Phantom?
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Jeff
Webmaster/Guide to The Point
"And he says 'I'm goin' crazy up there at the lake...'"
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Jeff
Webmaster/Guide to The Point
"And he says 'I'm goin' crazy up there at the lake...'"
Actually I though Drachen Fire was a really good ride, my favorite of Arrow's loopers. I'm sorry that BGW feels they need to get rid of the ride, it was a really fun ride! Arrow may have future projects for CF parks, Vallyfair! just got a Arrow Wild Mouse last year, an Arrow Acrobatic coaster would look very nice as part of any CP boardwalk project.
Drachen Fire was an awesome ride before the brakes were added and BGW ruined that ride when they litered it with brakes. Before the brakes I would say that the ride was disorenting but still re-rideable, it was no were as rough as any of the following Windjammer,OLFF,Iron Wolf or Shockwave. Once brakes were installed in made the trains go soooo slow through the inversions, and especally the corckscrews, and cutback, were going slow through though the inversions slow hung the rider into the OTSR"s. making the ride rough
The Phantom on the other hand Conception was by Harry W. Henninger, Jr. which I think means it was this Kennywood's park officals idea for the four loops, and or turn after the drop. So I would only blame half of it's performence on Arrow. Bascilly they built Kennywood's idea, and provided the hardware.
Yeah I think that Arrow is better off without Tomer , who has made some bad desgin descions Just neither of the two rides you mention I belive to be his or Arrow's fault. A good example of a bad desgin, is most evident on Shockwave , after the thrid loop , this is one of the worst transtions ever in the History of coasters. Luckly they fixed this transtion for the Viper(SFMM) which is one of Arrow's best loopers. What probably hurt Arrow worse then the retirement of tomer was the lose of Steve Okamoto to morgan in the early ninties. Okamoto would go onto desgin mamba, Steel Force, and the record breaker opening in Japan next year.
If you have ridden the Torando you will know that
The new engeners at Arrow are more capable of building a smooth groundbreaking looping coaster, while if this ride was built by Tomer it probably would have had tight loops and inversions, and would have lightly banked track on the sharp turnaround, and probably would have been alot rougher. The torando does somthing no other old arrow was capable of, a smooth fast overbanked turn, usually fast turns on Arrow's are rough and or have a jittery feling to them, this was not present on the Torando.
If CP has gotten lucky explain this ride slection at other parks
Pki Adventure Express SFMM Viper BGW LNM
Vortex Goldrusher BBW
Top GUN DF(Before Brakes)
The Phantom on the other hand Conception was by Harry W. Henninger, Jr. which I think means it was this Kennywood's park officals idea for the four loops, and or turn after the drop. So I would only blame half of it's performence on Arrow. Bascilly they built Kennywood's idea, and provided the hardware.
Yeah I think that Arrow is better off without Tomer , who has made some bad desgin descions Just neither of the two rides you mention I belive to be his or Arrow's fault. A good example of a bad desgin, is most evident on Shockwave , after the thrid loop , this is one of the worst transtions ever in the History of coasters. Luckly they fixed this transtion for the Viper(SFMM) which is one of Arrow's best loopers. What probably hurt Arrow worse then the retirement of tomer was the lose of Steve Okamoto to morgan in the early ninties. Okamoto would go onto desgin mamba, Steel Force, and the record breaker opening in Japan next year.
If you have ridden the Torando you will know that
The new engeners at Arrow are more capable of building a smooth groundbreaking looping coaster, while if this ride was built by Tomer it probably would have had tight loops and inversions, and would have lightly banked track on the sharp turnaround, and probably would have been alot rougher. The torando does somthing no other old arrow was capable of, a smooth fast overbanked turn, usually fast turns on Arrow's are rough and or have a jittery feling to them, this was not present on the Torando.
If CP has gotten lucky explain this ride slection at other parks
Pki Adventure Express SFMM Viper BGW LNM
Vortex Goldrusher BBW
Top GUN DF(Before Brakes)
I am sure this has been posted previously, but this link is a site that sells used rides. Drachen Fire is on there still. $4.5 Million asking price. This probably belongs at Coasterbuzz.com, but then again this whole Arrow thread probably does also, so here it is...
http://www.italintl.com/coaster.htm
http://www.italintl.com/coaster.htm
I still believe Drachen Fire as well as Anaconda are still good rides but the engineering for the technology did'nt seem to back it all up. Toomer is still a good designer and probably still my favorite. I just feel that Toomer is getting all the blame for the demise of Arrow.
Skykicker, you make a very important that everyone should consider. Toomer and the engineers at Arrow were MAJORLY pushing the envelope of what could be done with more limited technology, especially the lack of complicated computer programs that are utilized by everyone in the industry now-a-days to analyze every turn, force, and drop. A similar story comes to mind that involves the architectural field. Frank Lloyd Wright, one of the most ingenius and pioneering architects to ever live, battled this very same plight: He was designing structures far ahead of the capabilities of building materials of the time. Thus, that's why many of his structures are now in danger of structural decay if not restored. Most famous example: Falling Waters in which the cantilevered structure is now sagging. My point is, though, he pushed the envelope for his time. Just because some of his structures are seeing their age, that doesn't make him a bad architect. On the contrary he was an astounding one. I think the same courtesy should be said for Toomer.
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-Dave Kochman
Pittsburgh
*** This post was edited by DaveTKoch on 4/27/2000. ***
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-Dave Kochman
Pittsburgh
*** This post was edited by DaveTKoch on 4/27/2000. ***
The thing I always wonder about is how they came up with the track structure. I'm no engineer, but the stability and rigidity of a structure with triangles I know is always stronger. That's why I think that Intamin's track design is so smart. The rails won't bend and get "ruts" like the old Arrow track (see Magnum's pretzel). I'm sure it's more expensive to build that way, but it does seem more logical to me.
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Jeff
Webmaster/Guide to The Point
"And he says 'I'm goin' crazy up there at the lake...'"
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Jeff
Webmaster/Guide to The Point
"And he says 'I'm goin' crazy up there at the lake...'"
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