$2 to hold your on ride photo???

"Ugh. If it takes one employee 30 minutes each day at each of 14 coasters to deal with this service, and that employee is getting paid (for easy math) $8/hr, the cost of the labor associated with the service is:

(30/60 hours) x ($8/hr) x (14 booths) = $56/day

If there are, let's say, 140 operating days in a year, the total cost of the service is:

($56/day) x (140 days/year) = $7,840/year

There's your cost. Yeah, its not that much, but it does exist. Imagine that!"

There are a lot of "if's" in there.

There are 6 photo boothes in the park(raptor,magnum,millie,maverick, mean streak, woodstock express). Most of the time, they have several people working in the booth anyway. Some are working, some are not. So what if it did take them extra time to hand you your photo. They have to do it regardless if you grab it right now or later in the day. You have to stand there and wait for it any way.

You have a lot of assumptions in your math.Or like you say...A stickman argument.

What's to say that they don't have 1 employee in the park that has a job to just go around and pick up guests purcheses, and bring them to a location near the front gate? Under your math, they are now only paying 1 person a day to do this.

Even IF it did cost them a few bucks a day to offer this service, that cost would be offset by the added sales that they did not have before.Therefore, there are no added cost's. What's the old saying...you have to spend money, to make money. And last time I checked(specialy in cedar fairs case), that is the goal of a buisness.

When I was at six flags, and went to pick up my stuff at the end of the night, there were maybe 20-30 bags of stuff waiting for people. I can almost guerintee that 3/4 of that stuff would not have been bought in the first place if they did not offer the package pick up. Now that people know about the service, it spurs the sales.

Are you reading my posts, or just using some boilerplate response that ignores what I've been saying?

And its called a "straw man", and if you think that's what my argument is, I don't think you understand what a straw man is. :)

crazy horse said:
Even IF it did cost them a few bucks a day to offer this service, that cost would be offset by the added sales that they did not have before.Therefore, there are no added cost's.

Actually, there is an added cost. Cost and income are 2 separate columns. Good businesses get the income column to total higher than the cost column. Just because the income is higher than the cost doesn't mean there is no cost.

Walt -- I am suggesting nothing of the sort. What I am suggesting is that the folks who run the CF parks understand the CF parks, their customer bases, their cost structures, revenue streams, etc. And those who run other parks understand the same with respect to their parks. And each of those folks understands their own parks much better than any of us do.

I am also suggesting that what works at parks a, b and c may not work at park d. You have different customer bases, cost structures, cores of the park in terms of attractions, etc. And other parks do things as a way of trying to get more folks through the gates (because their attendance is relatively low) which is not true of all parks.

All of the parks are in business to make money. Their goals are to maximize profits/returns in both the short and long runs. To that end, if there is some type of action that can be taken with no cost that will increase profits, parks will take the action. And if there is a cost that they can incur that will result in increased profits significantly above that cost, they will incur the cost. That a given park doesn't take the given action or incur the given costs tells me that they do not see the increased profit resulting from it that so many here seem so certain exists.

And parks sometimes get it wrong. It may be the case that those other parks have found that what they are doing doesn't result in the increased profits that they thought but that once you provide a service, its difficult to stop doing it. It may also be the case the CP is wrong and there is more profit there than they think. All good businesses monitor the results of decisions, look at the assumptions that were behind it to see if they hold true and adjust as necessary. It may be the case that at some point down the road, CP holds on ride photos for free and even provides free package pickup (maybe they will even put in a mediocre coaster to make the "well Disney does it, why can't CP" fans happy ;) ). But at this point, it seems to me that CP is charging $2 to hold on-ride photos because they think that will maximize their profits (having considered, I suspect, charging nothing, charging more or less than $2, increasing the price of all on-ride photos $1 and holding all of them for free, etc.). And there are folks who would have spent more had they taken one of those other options, but on balance they have to make decisions that they think work overall for all guests not just pockets of them here and there.

I can't believe you are arguing about this.

For gods sake...so what if there is a tiny cost for cedar point. The point is, almost every park is doing this now, and it must be working out for them, otherwise they woulden't be doing it.

Why does cedarfair seem to be so far behind what other park chains are doing?

How could they go wrong by offering a package pick up? People will buy more crap....simple as that. Not only will they buy more, but it may even enhance there day as well by not having to worrie about what they are going to do with what they just bought. Imagine that.

DJ, you just seem hell bent on arguing all the time.

Yes. You're right. I obviously shouldn't be discussing things in a forum. I apologize for pointing out a fundamental error in your original post. I'll be sure to ignore things that are not correct in the future. That'll do wonders to help educate people.

2 things

GoBucks89 said:
That a given park doesn't take the given action or incur the given costs tells me that they do not see the increased profit resulting from it that so many here seem so certain exists.

Hard to see when you have someone standing over your shoulder covering your eyes with his hands.

(maybe they will even put in a mediocre coaster)

Were you not at the park in 2003? ;)

I am so glad you are here to educate us all Dj. The thing is, you are not discussing. You are arguing.

Disney may have thrown in a bunch of mediocre coasters, but look where it's got them.

GoBucks89 said:
What I am suggesting is that the folks who run the CF parks understand the CF parks, their customer bases, their cost structures, revenue streams, etc.

But perhaps there isn't universal agreement within the Cedar Fair universe ... or even majority agreement. I don't really know, just sayin'. :)

crazy -- Cedar Point will never be, and could never be, Disney. To suggest otherwise is silly. And if you think Disney is where it is today because of mediocre coaster, you really are crazy.

Walt -- Absolutely. Each of the CF parks has its own customer base, cost structure, revenue streams, etc. So what makes sense/works for one, may not work for them all.

I should have said "Cedar Point" and not "Cedar Fair" :)

That may be the case as well. With pretty much all entities, one person has to have the final say. And unless its an organization of one, you have the possibility of disagreements. CF and CP are not unique in that regard.

The problem is when individual park decisions are being made by a man who should be above the individual park level but can't let it go.

You had said before that any company would do research, look at their costs, revenues, etc., then makes a decision. What if the person with the final say makes a decision that the people below him or her disagree with?

I'm not saying that happened. I have no way of knowing. But there seems to be historical evidence that suggests it's at least a possibility. In that light, I think it's fair to question decisions - and be able to do so without sounding like an armchair industry expert.

I agree cedar point could never be even close to what disney is.

What I ment was that Disney has a bunch of mediocre coasters, and look where that has gotten them.Not to mention, great guest service...ect...ect.

But that's a whole differant thread.

I think BS64 hit it on the head back on page 2. Lately, CP seems completely disconnected from what seem to be obvious choices in terms of customer experience improvement. Simple, inexpensive services could enhance the guest experience, and some ("free" soda at HW, for example) would even be break-even propositions, financially speaking.

crazy horse said:
I agree cedar point could never be even close to what disney is.

I disagree with this notion entirely. Will Cedar Point ever see the cashflow that Disney has? No. But there is no reason to think that Cedar Point couldn't beat out Disney in customer service, food service, food value, souvenir value, ride operations, etc.

Cedar Point should be constantly striving to be what Disney is in these and many more categories.

Walt -- That can certainly happen. And it may have happened in this case and be happening overall for CF/CP. I do not know either. But at this point, I think we have talked this issue to death. :)

And I do note from this thread and from others on this board that a certain CF executive must not get many Christmas cards from a lot of folks who post here. ;)

As a side issue, and one for another thread, I think the biggest issue thata CF faces going forward is its flagship park is in a region that is not growing (or is at least not growing at any significant pace) and what do you do with that fact. Its an issue being faced by a lot of businesses in Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, etc.

"I disagree with this notion entirely. Will Cedar Point ever see the cashflow that Disney has? No. But there is no reason to think that Cedar Point couldn't beat out Disney in customer service, food service, food value, souvenir value, ride operations, etc.

Cedar Point should be constantly striving to be what Disney is in these and many more categories."

They should be, but they are not. They are doing the exact opposite. Prison quality food marked up to prices you would pay at a 4 star restaurant, customer service that has a LOT to be desired, souveniers this year also leave much to be desired. Not to mention the downfall of the live e this year. Plus all the silly policys that cedar point has in place. There is a laundry list of things, but I think you get the point.

I really do love the park. But the last 5 seasons, they have been in a free fall.

I can't believe I am saying this ...but... I totally agree with what DJ just said.

JL -- I agree with you but only to a point. I think that every business should strive to provide the level of service that Disney does. Disney is certainly one of the standard setters for customer service. However, the cash flows do matter. The vast majority of Disney visitors spend at least $1000 on their trip (and many spend a lot more than that). Orlando is a vacation destination (in large part because of Disney but the weather doesn't hurt). For CP I would think that the majority of their customers are there for the day (and maybe the weekend) spending signficantly less money. You can provide a higher level of service when the cash flows support it. Yes, improving service can help increase cash flows but there is a limit to that when you look at the customer base. And the average guest at Disney walks through the gate with significantly more money to spend in their pockets than does the averagae CP guest. So I think CP (and other businesses) should strive to provide Disney type services but have to also realize the reality of the differences (whats the old saying: its ok to dream with your head in the clouds as long as your feet are firmly planted on the groundd?).