Video Camera Recommendations

^Doesn't it use the Mini-DV tape faster too?

Jeff said:
The only warning I have about HDV is that you're compressing a whole lot more data into the bandwidth of standard definition DV tape. That doesn't come for free. You will get some level of compression artifacts in certain situations involving fast motion.

I know Sony and I think JVC both make HD-specific Mini DV tapes. I'm not sure if those help at all, but if you haven't already tried them, it might be worth a shot.

I'd be curious to see if there's much of a difference.

link: http://www.tapestockonline.com/mini-dv-hd.html

The tape has nothing to do with it. When you squeeze all of that data down to less than 25 mbits, the rate that data can be stored to the tape, you have to give up something. The HDV format itself is the issue.

I picked up a Canon Elura 100. It is Mini-DV, and also accomodates a 512mb memory card. Does stills to video or to the card. Does movies to the card as well. Major stumbling block of this unit is the compact Lithium-Ion battery, which is about 90 minutes worth. No larger capacity battery currently available. However, it has other features I very much wanted, such as external mic and line audio inputs, DV-AV transcriptions and some other nifty features like that.

It will integrate with my computer network very well, and also plays well with many analog devices. Firewire, USB and Pictbridge. Stills to card while live taping. Auto exposure bracketing of stills, hi-res stills. 20x optical zoom. Interface cables included with the camera, except Firewire cable, and I have that already.

I bought the camera, carrying case, extra battery, 4 memory cards, and a 3-pack of mini-DV tapes for under 650.00. Happy, happy. Joy joy. Now I can still access old tapes, but can begin to move to flash memory for video, as each memory card can hold up to 30 minutes video. All things considered, it seems like a nice crossover unit. I expect Mini-DV tape units to vanish within the next couple of years.

Here's a fun fact - The Elura 100 is just about the same size as my hand. I just celebrated my 17th wedding anniversary on Saturday the 24th. On that weekend, 17 years ago, I rented, rented, mind you, a Curtis-Mathis full-size VHS camcorder for the week. It was so big it had to be perched on the shoulder to use, and weighed as much as a small suitcase. Now I have a camcorder that is smaller than the tapes I used in that unit. Of course, back then, cell phones came in large bags and were accompanied by a separate battery-pack which was close to the size of a motorcycle battery.

Ain't technology grand?

And, of course, 17 years ago, I didn't ride roller coasters, either.

What format is the solid state recording? 30 minutes sounds like a lot of compression.

Just what I was thinking, Jeff. Even the really huge flash cards I don't think are really ready for MiniDV replacement. I think the future will be more based on what I have seen in some newer JVC Camcorders that store directly to large on-board hard-disk drives. Seems like the next logical progression since Tivo type DVR units have been storing video to hard-disk drives, albeit in TV mode, for years now.

Likewise those DVD camcorders seem more like a novelty for the less technologically inclined; folks who aren't into their own fancy DVD productions of their filming sessions. I can't see them really catching on and taking over.

I am interested in the HD camcorders, that is though just an interest. Too expensive for me now, not only on the camera, but on the computer with the right set of horsepower and tools enough to deal with processing all that HD video I'd be shooting. That and I still don't have the TV capable of enjoying the video to its fullest potential.

I'll stick with my Panasonic MiniDV that I have been using for about 4-5 years now. You can't buy that model anymore, but it is very small and has all the features I need and works great. I then turn that video into some really cool DVD productions.

Standard NTSC DV is about 4 minutes per gigabyte on my professional P2-based camera. It records in the native DV format, so that's the same data that would be committed to tape. If that consumer camcorder is recoding more, then it's not DV.

I have not done experiments yet with the card, but you are definitely correct on the file sizes, etc. I usually prefer to work in full size DV for source material. According to the specs in the manual:

Size of Images on the card: Still images 1152 x 864, 640 x 480 pixels. Movie: 320 x 240, 160 x 120 pixels, 15 frames/sec

Image Compression Method: Still image: JPEG (compression: Super Fine, Fine, Normal) Movie: Video Data: Motion JPEG, audio data: WAVE (monaural)

I will have to do some testing to determine what material will be suitable for the card, and what I will want to put on tape for higher quality source material. Broad daylight, silly fun stuff can go to the card. Serious material, and anything in low light will obviously need to go to the tape.

Still, the option to go to the card is kind of nice, and offers a safety net to at least catch some kind of image. And, after having toasted two transports in one camera, I'm starting to get gun-shy about magnetic tape. I'll be glad when it's gone. I'm not sure on-board hard drives are at the point where they can survive the shock-tests some people could put them through.

Well there you go. DV is 720x480 at 29.97 fps. That's a lot more data!

So those HD resolutions (1280x720, and 1920x1080) must consume massive amounts of hard drive space then, eh?

Yep. A quick-and-dirty comparison:

SD = 720x480 = 345,600 pixels

HD = 1280x720 = 921,600 pixels (2.67 times SD)

And this is assuming they're using the same framerates, which they aren't.
*** Edited 6/27/2006 5:32:12 PM UTC by djDaemon***

External hard drives... :)

1080/30p. 1080/24p, 720/60p all use the DVCPRO HD codec on my camera, and my 8 gigs of P2 storage can store 8 minutes of any of those flavors before I need to empty them out.

FYI... P2 cards are CardBus cards made up of four zero-error SD cards connected via a RAID controller. Not cheap, but still cheaper than a DVCPRO HD tape mechanism, which would add tens of thousands to the cost. You just have to get used to the workflow.

What is holding back the use of HD's for storage in cameras?

Like I said before, JVC's got them.

But unless you can record to a tape or a removable card, once you're out of space you're sunk until you can move it over to a computer hard drive.

Not necessarily. A removable HardDrive that snaps into place using a USB interface could be swapped out for a separate harddrive. If you figure a 250GB harddrive for under 100 bucks and you can record (based on Jeff's estimates of 1 minute per GB) about 4 hours of HD video to one disk. Then since it uses a usb connection (or something even provided by your camera maker) it can be instantly connected to the computer to offload data and you can have a blank drive available in case you want to continue recording and don't have a computer available. I'm not sure how much each tape can store (do they make larger ones Jeff?) or how much they cost. But swappable harddrives could be a solution.

Ah, but you're still looking at a removable device. I thought they were speaking of a device with only an on-board memory HD.

Yes, but would it be so hard to make a HDD removeable? Still, even a single HDD capacity wise is much more than it would appear that the tapes are. And drop in one of the 500 GB drives and you've got an HD video recorder with the capacity of a VHS tape.

No, I'm not doubting that it could be done. I just misunderstood that they were speaking of a removable HD rather than just an on-board HD.