Should more testing have been performed?

I have some thoughts that I hope will be interpreted as constructive, not useless complaining.

I was wonder if CP tested TTD enough before decided it was ready for the public. Someone in another thread mentioned that bugs are not usually discovered in computer software until you get real users on the system. As an IT professional, I know this is true. I also know that how much testing is performed on a piece of software is dependant on the software function. If you are writing some code to sell toilet paper online, the testing is not that critical. However, if you are writing an aircraft control system, then you are going to spend a large amount of time testing. It’s even possible that you will spend more time testing, then actually writing code.

Part of the testing process is doing a stress test. Running many transactions through the system to find out how it handles under pressure. I think that CP did not do enough stress testing on TTD. I am thinking specifically about the tire problems (rotating and then falling off). This is the type of problem that will only surface after many, many test runs. I still think that CP is extremely lucky that the tire did not hit anyone when it detached from the train. Can you imagine the bad publicity this would have caused?

I realize that CP was under pressure to have the ride open for opening day. But that has to be weighed against the risk of something going wrong because of truncated testing. If Microsoft releases a buggy version of Word, the worst that happens is that they inconvenience a bunch of customers. If Boeing builds an aircraft with a faulty control system, people could get hurt. I think TTD falls into the same category. With the ride being as extreme as it is, I think more testing should have been done before opening to the public.

*** This post was edited by RPMGuitar 7/9/2003 5:46:51 PM ***

I guess I partially disagree, partially agree with you.

No ride should be open until it is deemed safe for riders (and, incidentally, those around the ride), so on the tire issue, I agree. No one was hurt by the right tire falling off of the train, but the fact remains that if the left tire had fallen off in a similar manner, it's possible people in line could have been injured. I suppose that, assuming the tire falling off was a design flaw, weeks of testing without riders would have uncovered this issue.

However, this was not the cause of the significant downtime, which seemed to have something to do with the malfunctioning hydraulic engine. This posed no danger to the riders, so the question essentially becomes this: Would you rather have them testing empty trains or trains with riders? I choose the latter. In this sense, I don't think Cedar Point should have done more testing without riders. If people can be riding safely while bugs are worked out, why not let them?

EDITed for typos, etc.
*** This post was edited by mk468zz 7/9/2003 6:13:17 PM ***

I see the ride is open now. Looks fine to me, so what is this about not testing it enough?

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2002/2003
KPTM

The park has said over and over again that due to weather delays they didn't get to test as much as they'd like to. They would have been firing off trains in March if they could have I'm sure.

The tire thing was a freak accident. Stuff happens, even at Cedar Point. They got lucky. The ride itself is, however, perfectly safe, or the manufacturer, the park and the state wouldn't have signed off on it.

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Jeff - Webmaster - GTTP - Sillynonsense.com
DELETED! What time does the water show start?

Yes, CP tested as much as they possibly could. We just had a very harsh winter. Nothing that anyone could do about that.
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Admin- http://rollercoast.proboards16.com/

RPMGuitar, i agree with many of your statements. i agree that Cedar Point did not test enough under stress. even without riders, they could have used the water dummies, which are similar in weight to a guest, which would give almost a real live simulation of riders. i believe putting off the opening till after opening day would have solved some of the problems, but not all. a ride with this magnitude would have some problems, but i agree that they could have limited these with more testing

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Top Thrill Dragster: 2
Millenium Force: 17
Magnum: 71

I can understand the need for debugging TTD’s control system. As was said previously, software can be very difficult to perfect without live testing. But what I’m struggling to accept that the mechanical system problems were to be expected.

With 3 years of development and a sister ride to gain experience from, you would think the most critical and innovative system had been, or at least should have been, tested more thoroughly and potential bugs examined more closely. Contamination of the hydraulic fluid is obviously not a new problem. The problem with commenting on this and the other mechanical failures is that I don’t know enough about the details to make a judgment call.

But one thing is certain, a harsh winter is a very poor excuse for not properly testing the ride. If the hydraulic system required testing to determine potential problems and it wasn’t performed in order to meet an opening day deadline, then both CP and Intamin created a huge problem for themselves. What’s funny is that if they had started testing in March, they would have discovered that the hydraulic system had some major issues in April and then what would they have done? A complete overhaul wouldn’t be possible by May and they would be in just as much trouble as they are now I think. But at least they wouldn't have plugged it so hard in the media for this summer. I’m just really surprised the system wasn’t tested in Europe last summer with a test track for a while before installing it Ohio. Maybe it just wasn’t an option or it wasn't complete yet. I don’t know. It's too bad though.

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GeZiNhaX said:
RPMGuitar, i agree with many of your statements. i agree that Cedar Point did not test enough under stress. even without riders, they could have used the water dummies, which are similar in weight to a guest, which would give almost a real live simulation of riders.

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Uh, they did do that. They did it as much as they could prior to opening day.

However, what some of you aren't getting is that by opening day they had been plugging the ride for five months and the expectation was that it would be open. Furthermore, as some of you suggest, they did have the prototype to learn from and that still wasn't enough. Even with the limited time to test I would've been satisfied with what I had. All things considered, they didn't have a reason not to think it was good to go.

If you don't count the cable seperation, which was going to happen either right away as it did or a couple of years from now, they basically have had two major problems. The first was heat, and they seem to have beat that one. The second was the contaminated hydraulic fluid. Because they haven't said, we don't know if that was caused by poorly cleaned parts and hoses or by some other accident by which the fluid wasn't handled properly.

Bottom line, if it was my ride, I doubt I would've done anything differently.

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Jeff - Webmaster - GTTP - Sillynonsense.com
DELETED! What time does the water show start?

I don't see where the software itself could be that much of a problem. PLC's are not really that complicated; it's not that hard to predict how the timers should be set, i.e, which input should be made before an output is fired. More than likely, the input devices would be causing any problems here. TTD has an unbelievable amount of proximity switches on it - if just one fails, it'll shut the whole thing down. And they will fail at some point. It's all a matter of learning how to repair it. And I don't see why that can't be done in real time.

Bottom line - they'll never quit testing it.

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Without upstops, airtime would have a whole new meaning!

Was it the actual spinning that made the tire come off or was it stress on the joints holding it on. The tires stuck out quite a bit and would have produced alot of drag, which easily could have broken the joint.

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Jeff said:
The park has said over and over again that due to weather delays they didn't get to test as much as they'd like to. They would have been firing off trains in March if they could have I'm sure.

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That was my point. I don’t think it is wise or safe to short cut testing because you want the ride ready for opening day. Sure, it is an incredibly hard decision for someone to say the ride is not ready. Maybe some people within CP did raise those concerns and were overruled.

I don’t think the people at CP would ever open a ride they thought was not functioning properly. But sometimes things get missed in a rush to meet expectations. Just ask the people at NASA about that. And yes, the problems with TTD are miniscule when compared to the first shuttle explosion, but my point is that even the most well meaning people can overlook potential problems when they are under pressure. And as Jeff said, stuff can still happen, but I think you need to give everyone involved enough time to work out as many problems as possible.------------------
Bob M.

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*** This post was edited by RPMGuitar 7/10/2003 7:41:47 AM ***

I have to agree with Jeff on this one. If it was my ride I would not have done anything different then what CP has already comitted to. CP has historically remained constant in regards to their managing of new thrill rides and supplying information to the public. The amusement park industry is a highly competitive environment and IMO the Point has done a thousand percent better then many of it's competitors. That is why we are all fans and believe it or not, Cedar Point is somewhat of a hidden gem in this great country.

Comparing Cedar Point to NASA is slightly apples and oranges as there are many different "interests" invovled with NASA. (who is NASA's competition?) I have full faith that officials at the point play a completely balanced game of running the business they have beceome known to be experts in which includes park safety and customer satisfaction!

I agree that there should be more testing, but I think they can do that with people on the ride and in operation. There is no question that this ride is extreme, but you have to consider the fact that Cedar Point has a very strict safely policy at Cedar Point.

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Life has it's ups and downs, might as well make it on a coaster!

Cedar Point has its accidents, same as any other amusement park, but has anyone gotten injured on TTD yet? (or near TTD, its raining 150 lb tires) and if someone did get injured/killed, they would destroy the ride...but I dont see that happening, and TTD meets all the standards of the government/state inspectors...it just had some hydraulic issues, and every coaster has a break-in period in which they fix all the "hiccups" in the system

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LaUnCh...420 feet, 120 mph, 4 seconds....brakes...breathe

Jeff, my comment about the water dummies was in response to someone saying that they did as much testing as necessary without people and that they needed people on the ride to test it futher...i was just saying that they could have used the water dummies to further test it as if people were on

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Top Thrill Dragster: 2
Millenium Force: 17
Magnum: 71

And the point he was making is that they DID test it with water dummies.. They just didn't have enough days to do so because the construction took longer than expected due to a harsh winter.. SO, they had less time after building it to test it. It has nothing to do with HOW they tested it, but HOW MUCH TIME they had.

As far as I can tell, all the issues with TTD are operational, not safety. OK, maybe the tires falling off, but that's not really part of the ride.

All the software controls for the safety system I'm sure are as bug free as they can be made. That software could have been programmed and tested via emulators a long time ago.

It just has some trouble running at times, safety is not an issue.

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I'd rather be in my boat with a drink on the rocks,
than in the drink with a boat on the rocks.

Pete said:
OK, maybe the tires falling off, but that's not really part of the ride.

If it's attached to the ride, then it is part of the ride. Even though the tires served no purpose other then scenery, they are still a very heavy and very solid part of the ride that should not fall off.

bholcomb is dead on with his statement. I don't think there was anything wrong with the way CP tested. And since I'm not a mechanical engineer, I wouldn't know even if there was. But two weeks seems to me like a very short amount of time to test something as complicated at TTD.

And to those of you that posted that they can test while people are riding - that makes no sense at all. If paying customers are riding, then it's not a test, it's for real. I have know computer programmers who have gotten fired for 'testing' in a production environment.

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Bob M.

*** This post was edited by RPMGuitar 7/11/2003 2:56:11 PM ***

Uh, they tested TTD for more than two weeks, as you said, paying riders are not a test, well, they tested the hydraulics and computer system way back in March, and they did test fires at the beginning of April, sure they were only 1/4 power or whatever, but the point is, is that it was testing for more than 2 weeks..

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"What time does the 10 pm laser show start?"

Has it occurred to anyone that even if TTD had started testing in February (impossible, I know), that it would have been running as it is running today on Opening Day?

MrScott

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"If we go any faster, she'll blow apart for sure!"