Obamacare and Cedar Point

With the amount of our GDP that is spent on healthcare, we could have a national healthcare plan that is nearly twice as good as Canada's.

Glad to see Zoug68 has solutions to the worlds problems figured out.

^^ Ralph, I hear what you're saying ideologically but it's just not as simple as you make it seem. If the practice of using contract workers were not an option, you could argue that many businesses would not be profitable enough to survive. In such a case, what good did it really do? Everyone in the business would be out of a job.

To shift all the burdens to the business owner would require him to raise prices, which, is a burden then shared by all his customers.

What people just don't seem to grasp is that you can't get something for nothing. Someone has to pay, and most times it's the consumer, either through taxes, higher prices, etc.

MaverickLaunch said:
If the practice of using contract workers were not an option, you could argue that many businesses would not be profitable enough to survive.

This contract worker thing is relatively new, at least on the scale in which it's currently being used. So how did businesses survive before such a cheap labor option became available? Or taking a step back, how did they survive back when many employers actually offered lifetime pensions and GOOD healthcare coverage?

Whatever conditions have changed between now and then to warrant the changes (assuming they're warranted and not just a money grab) are certainly not the fault of the employees. That's why I have such a hard time accepting the "we're struggling to survive" attitudes from some business owners. They're ultimately the ones responsible for failing to properly navigate whatever economic difficulties they may be facing, so it makes me mad when they act like their employees are the problem and we should feel bad for them because they're "job creators."

I do believe it's absurd to have a for-profit insurance system in which employers are responsible for providing access/coverage. I understand how and why it came about, but it's still mind boggling. Make it a universal, single payer system that everyone pays into, and leave the employers to focus on their business instead of health insurance.

Rarely has a video clip been more timely. A brief clip from The Daily Show from November 13th.

Ralph Wiggum said:

Whatever conditions have changed between now and then to warrant the changes (assuming they're warranted and not just a money grab) are certainly not the fault of the employees. That's why I have such a hard time accepting the "we're struggling to survive" attitudes from some business owners. They're ultimately the ones responsible for failing to properly navigate whatever economic difficulties they may be facing, so it makes me mad when they act like their employees are the problem and we should feel bad for them because they're "job creators."

For a lot of businesses (especially in the service industry), employees are the biggest expense. If they are having financial problems, they willl look at the areas that will have the biggest impact. Its not a matter of fault or blame. Just reality.

Ralph, I've been an employee in corporate America, and for the last 8 years, a business owner employing others. I have seen both sides.

Until you have risked everything... your credit, your own money, your promising career, to start your own business, you lack the experience necessary to fully understand the problem from both sides. I don't say that to be mean, just to explain where my philosophy originates. Nobody is going to bail me out if my business goes under. I will not get to collect unemployment as a business owner, if I fail. There are no handouts for me (since I am not in the green energy business).

Too many Americans have adopted this philosophy of demonizing business owners, when we are the ones who write your paycheck and keep this economy moving. We take enormous personal and financial risks. Profit is our reward. It is not evil. I don't expect you to understand this till you've done it, so I'll leave it at that.

MaverickLaunch said:
Too many Americans have adopted this philosophy of demonizing business owners...

Gee, I wonder why that happens...

...we are the ones who... keep this economy moving.

Oh yeah. That mindset might have something to do with it.

I like how you only respond to a small part of a post and ignore the larger point.

We have a system of at-will employment. You are free to quit your job at any time, and business owners are free to terminate you at any time, without reason. Excluding people under contract for a certain period of time, obviously.

If you don't like that, do something to change your situation. Move to the other side of the equation. Control your destiny. Risk everything and start your own business.

That's what I thought.

Way off topic here so I'll let this go, and jump back into the gatekeeper threads!

I'm not ignoring your larger point.

My point was that your attitude is a problem. Suggesting, as you are, that "job creators" are the sole force keeping the economy moving is a big reason why "job creators" are demonized. You're not doing it alone.

It's clear you want kudos for taking the risk of starting your own company. So, go ahead - grab a handful. But don't act like you're doing your employees (and the economy) a huge favor merely by employing them.

Not looking for kudos at all. Kudos don't pay the bills!

Was just trying to convey an employers point of view, which is often drowned by the noise of demonizing the very people who write paychecks, which is what Ralph is doing. There are two sides to every story.

Correct - there are two sides. That was my point. You're not doing it alone.

Ralph Wiggum said:
Make it a universal, single payer system that everyone pays into,

So do you want single payer, or everyone to pay? And if it is truly single payer, who is the single payer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-payer_health_care

You link to Wikipedia for an explanation?

Anyway, "Single Payer" isn't really single payer. We all would pay. This is a pet peeve of mine, like the term Working Class. Do rich people not work?

Ralph Wiggum said:
So how did businesses survive before such a cheap labor option became available? Or taking a step back, how did they survive back when many employers actually offered lifetime pensions and GOOD healthcare coverage?

How did they survive? Less taxes. Same way my grandparents' generation did it.

A $50,000 job isn't really a $50,000 job, nor was it ever, but look at the amount of taxes you pay out of it and look at what you actually take home. I'm not talking just income, but look at the everyday taxes you pay. Sales tax, gas tax, property taxes if you own, telephone or tv tax if you have that service, etc. It would be impossible to add that all up, but it takes a big chunk out of that $50,000.

Now what did we get? More services, more roads, more levels of government. Is it worth it? Do you think you are getting your money's worth? That's for you to decide.

Businesses have more of a burden than ever when it comes to taxes and compliance. AHCAA (I refuse to call it "Obamacare," because Congress passed it and the Supreme Court has so far upheld it, Obama merely signed it into law) will add more to that burden. I don't know what the outcome will be, if it'll be worth it. As Congress told us, we'll have to "wait and see what's in the law."

~Rob

How long will it be before "signing your paycheck", becomes too much. Don't think employee benefits are too much to ask if you are interested in having employee's make you money every day. Sooner or later prices are going to have to go up or nobody in their right mind will work for you. Have fun telling prospective employees that you have a hard time keeping tabs on vacation so you are cutting it. Or health care is too expensive, go without.

The ones who got the most are complaining way too much to the ones who have the least. Cutting their benefits for making their profits. I would rather get laid off than have to have the owner of the business cut my benefits so he can make what he sees fit. Obviously not looking out after the people in the field who take care of him too.

I earned every check I recieved! Don't expect to say please sign it. I'm glad the government is willing to at least make sure employees are getting the benefits they deserve, most importantly health care.

MaverickLaunch said:
Too many Americans have adopted this philosophy of demonizing business owners, when we are the ones who write your paycheck and keep this economy moving.

As dj said, it's really the consumers that keep the economy moving, not the business owners. You'll never make one cent if consumers don't have money to spend on whatever you're selling. History shows that everyone from the top down does better when consumers have more money to spend, which obviously won't happen if everyone is going broke because their checks have been downsized. You aren't doing anyone a "favor" by writing them a paycheck, but it seems like the overwhelming attitude from those at the top is that we should just shut up and be thankful for it.

Avalanche Sam said:

So do you want single payer, or everyone to pay? And if it is truly single payer, who is the single payer?

I don't think anyone is trying to be deceptive when they describe it as single payer. The Wiki article is actually quite informative. Of course everyone pays into it. You do it any other way, and you're still going to have to find a way to pay for the uninsured who show up for emergency care, which is what's killing us now. Unless you want to just let the uninsured/poor die off if they find themselves in an unfortunate medical situation.

HeyIsntThatRob? said:
How did they survive? Less taxes. Same way my grandparents' generation did it.

Even though taxes currently are at a historical low?

redsfan said:
How long will it be before "signing your paycheck", becomes too much. Don't think employee benefits are too much to ask if you are interested in having employee's make you money every day. Sooner or later prices are going to have to go up or nobody in their right mind will work for you. Have fun telling prospective employees that you have a hard time keeping tabs on vacation so you are cutting it. Or health care is too expensive, go without.

Smart business folks take that into account when setting pay/comp. If your pay/comp packages do not attract and retian the number of motivated people with the skills that you need, you will need to improve the packages. If you don't, you won't be in business long.

The ones who got the most are complaining way too much to the ones who have the least. Cutting their benefits for making their profits. I would rather get laid off than have to have the owner of the business cut my benefits so he can make what he sees fit. Obviously not looking out after the people in the field who take care of him too.

To increase profits, businesses can sell more, increase their prices or reduce their expenses. In competitive markets, the first two are often difficult. Expenses are typically more in the direct control of the business. Employees are typically a large, if not the largest, expense. So its where businesses looking to reduce costs will look. Though its subject to having enough employees with the right skills to run the business.

Any employee who doesn't like the comp package or anything else at their place of employment is free to leave. No one is forced to work at any specific job. Happens every day. Employers typically do not fret over a couple people who do that. Becomes a problem if the numbers increase or its key people who are leaving.

I earned every check I recieved! Don't expect to say please sign it. I'm glad the government is willing to at least make sure employees are getting the benefits they deserve, most importantly health care.

Who determines what anyone deserves?

With respect to the level of taxation, article talks about federal taxation. Not overall taxes (local, state and federal). It also indicates that primary reason federal taxes are down is a weak economy and incentives put in place to help with a weak economy. As the economy strengthens, federal taxes will thus increase.

Very well said. Much more succinct than I tried to convey earlier, which got only the typical, brash "you ain't nothing without your employees" spiel.

Obviously, business owners and employees are perpetually engaged in a symbiotic relationship. We need each other. When one side is unhappy they can terminate the relationship, and the free market can decide who was right (ie if benefit packages were not competitive, the business will have trouble attracting good talent. Similarly, if the employee sucked, then they might have trouble finding another job).