News: Voinovich says Ohio will lose if it plays the slots

gener, if Voinovich did Cleveland so well, please explain this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6080044/

I hate Cleveland. I hate being downtown, I hate seeing concerts at venues in the city, and I really thought the rock and roll hall of fame was as lame as you can get. Now, it's the poorest city in the country? Nice.

What in the world does that have to do with Voinovich? He hasn't been mayor in almost 20 years! Voinovich saved the city from Kucinich and was key in the downtown comeback that included the BP Building, and eventually the Key Tower. Mike White had his moments, but the leadership in this town has been lacking since.

Oh, I have no doubt a casino at CP would get a LOT of use. Hell, *I* would definitely drop some cash in one. Sandusky is a destination during the summer and winter with Cedar Point and all of the new enclosed waterparks, aka tourism. Not to mention the entire Put-in-Bay, Marblehead, Kelly's Island and Port Clinton areas which also have a huge summer draw.

But the proposal currently in the works in Ohio doesn't appear to include Sandusky at all. And they'd need more than slot machines to make ANY kind of a draw. How many people who visit the touristy areas are going to make that extra drive just to play at a Casino in Cleveland??

I suspect, just as it has in Detroit, people will discover the casinos aren't generating the kind of economy boost they are looking for and will therefore stall any further installations as it has in Michigan.

Walt, my reply was to gener who was talking about how great Cleveland was. I figured I would show him that it wasn't the case.

Voinovich was a good mayor, as was Mike White. Jane Campbell was worthless.

Detroit's problems are far deeper than Cleveland's, that's for sure. But look across the river at Windsor. I used to visit that town to go drinking at age 19 before the casino was built. It was always a nice town with plenty of great restaurants on Ouelette Ave. Has the town improved since? I would say yes, in terms of jobs and overall stimulation of the economy there. I think it may have lost some of its charm, but seeing as how the provincial government owns and controls the casino, the scope of the development is very well contained. The province gets 20% of the revenue.

Would Cleveland benefit? Not sure. If it would be connected with the creation of useful convention space, then absolutely. Here we are trying to win the Republican National Convention and we have to put conventioneers 45 miles away from the arena. I don't think that's exactly screaming in our favor. (And I want to sell T-shirts that say, "I partied with rich white old guys at RNC 2008!")

I guess now that I've thought it through, I'd be OK with it if it was tied to a bigger picture response to the state's problems, especially with school funding and the screwed up distribution of the tax burden.

I'm still trying to figure out what this even has to do with Cedar Point. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a good debate but this is far from what this website is even about.

Because CP/CF is going to put a casino barge/boat next to Castaway Bay. And more power to them! :) :) But seriously, Sandusky needs a year round draw that isn't in Perkins Twp (that's where most of the water parks are). Maybe a casino could be their initial draw and Sandusky could be the Pigeon Forge of the great lakes if they could only work with CP and others to make it happen. Maybe the Sandusky Mall could become another indoor amusement park like the one in MN?

I too ask how Voinovich is responsible for Cleveland being the "poorest city"? Look at what he did for Cleveland in the early '80s and the types of developments he brought in. The wave of George's influence ebbed out years ago.

But i have to say there is plenty of development today in the city. You want downtown? Don't let Euclid Ave and the Galleria get you down, they are only serving the nine to fivers. One only has to look a little east and west to find the action. There are scads of housing developments with more on the drawing boards for downtown alone. Look in the warehouse district and Gateway districts.

How about the work by MRN on East Fourth? Or the fact that there are actual infill developments in both the Warehouse District and at the "Avenue District"? Let's not forget Wolstein and the fact he thinks highly enough of the city to put 250 million in the flats of all places. Plus the other developments downtown proposed for the port authority land, the parking lots west of public square and the eventual move of the county buildings into the old Cleveland Trust site and redevelopment of the old county site. There are enough people down there now to support two actual grocery stores! Check out the theaters near CSU and the rehabbed digs that PBS just moved into. Speaking of CSU, have you seen the new graduate buildings being erected on Euclid Ave past 17th St? Please note that none of this is because of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Browns Stadium, Jacobs Field or the Gund. All the big ticket developments in the early 90s were showy but little substance for the city. Let's call them necessary evils.

Back to the point; so that isn't enough for you? How about the development out by the airport? (you know where Sysco is?) or the foodbank out in the Collinwood yards. How about the plan to remove the shoreway west of downtown to open up the west side to the lake and parks on the west side? There are already some developing in that area. And have we forgot about Steelyard Commons? Anyone hear of the West Quad? And how about Cleveland's Historic Preservation Society (considered one of the best in the country)? They just worked with the city on the rehab of the Hays HS on Carnegie and Stokes. Which in itself is a progressive and exciting program for the Cleveland school district. And look at the fine progress in the Tremont, Ohio City, Little Italy, Detroit-Shoreway and Eco-Village neighborhoods. They may not be the prettiest areas of the city, but people are working damn hard to help this city.

The thing is that all of these projects add up to so much more than anything a casino or convention center could ever hope to accomplish. These developments add to the population, tax base, culture, heritage of the city and more. Ask cities like Cincinnati and Pittsburgh how great their new/renovated convention centers are. White elephants are what they are. When are people going to learn that these big single use projects do little for the city and its inhabitants. You see at least the city leaders have learned from the mistakes made with the stadiums. You ever wonder why there isn't a convention center yet? Because they know it isn't the cure all for the city and have decided not to bank the financial solvency of the city on it.

https://www.usgbc.org/LEED/Project/project_detail_step_1.asp?PROJECT_ID=1021
http://www.east4thstreet.com/
http://www.theavenuedistrict.com/newlayout/
http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/lakefront/cpc.html
http://westquad.case.edu/
http://pages.prodigy.net/karapaul/cleve.htm
http://www.clevelandrestoration.org/HomeownerPrograms/nhpp.htm

The report kind of irks me in that it is a representation of the city only. It doesn't reflect the region as a whole. And if anything this report should open our eyes to the problem we as a region face with the extreme concentration of poverty in the city. I definately think that this issue must be addressed before the area is completely recovered. I imagine that the county/MSA as a whole would fare much better in every catagory compared to other big cities.

Jeff: Jane was ineffictive in many ways, but one cannot dismiss her hard work with the planning commission and commitment to the institution of a sustainability program. Unfortunately people will only remember the adopt a trash cans and street light camera fiascos. But considering she inherited a city left in financial ruin i think she did pretty all right.

Mike White just gets the cred for saving the Browns. He really wasn't too responsible with the city while he had it.

Cleveland has plenty of problems. But suburbanites really have little concept of what is going on down there at this moment in time. The city is finally putting together some really good stuff and I know that I for one doesn't what that all buggered up with a big casino plopped down in the middle of what people have worked so hard to build.

"I'm still trying to figure out what this even has to do with Cedar Point. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a good debate but this is far from what this website is even about."

Don't you ever get sick of the frivilous topics that usually run their course around here? I know that I rather enjoy the conversation of most on this board, especially Jeff, Walt, ensign, and the rest that i get in to it with (i know that was a terrible sentence). And i know that even if this isn't really on CP topic i would rather talk with the folks i'm familiar with rather than troll a whole new site just to set the record straight about Cleveland ;)

When the park says they have an interest in bringing gaming to Sandusky, it has everything to do with Cedar Point. It sounds like you may not have read the news article that started this thread.

Perhaps I'm showing my ignorance here, but:

Who or what is to stop the state and local governments from structuring the deal with whoever will be running the casino to funnel a larger than normal amount of profits back to the area?

I'm sure there are many many gaming companies and tribes chomping at the bit to get into Ohio...sounds like a decent enough bargaining position.

I guess that's the point I was getting at. If some developer wants to make money bad enough, they'll concede to whatever arrangements are made with regards to where the profits will go, provided they get a piece.

And if you think convention space isn't important, you're nuts. It's still the missing piece. Ever been to Baltimore's Inner Harbor? It reminds me of Cleveland in so many ways with the touristy museum and retail stuff, hotels, ball parks and a convention center. I would never have been to Baltimore at all had it not been for that convention space. Judging by the thousands of girls in volleyball shorts when I'm there roaming the harbor (Northeast Qualifier), the draw of that building has something to do with the area's success.

Columbus is similarly anchored with the convention center, arena and the south end of Short North. Would I have ever been there if it weren't for the convention center? Not a chance. Ditto for Atlanta, while we're at it.

"Who or what is to stop the state and local governments from structuring the deal with whoever will be running the casino to funnel a larger than normal amount of profits back to the area?"

"I guess that's the point I was getting at. If some developer wants to make money bad enough, they'll concede to whatever arrangements are made with regards to where the profits will go, provided they get a piece."

That is exactly why the current proposal is so bad.

Jeff, do you really think that companies will all of a sudden decide that Cleveland is the perfect place for a convention as soon as there is a new facility. Sure there will be some groups that will come to Cleveland because a new center is built. But that doesn't change the issue that every second tier city is competing for a piece of the same pie. And most of those in the pie would much rather travel to a more interesting travel local (ie Orlando or Vegas). A convention center does very little to spur growth in an area and must be placed with caution.

I don't know anything about Baltimore. Columbus has some development near the center, but the real growth is north of the convention center and has nothing to do with conventions. And from what i can tell this growth has had little sustaining power. You say that you have been to Columbus and Baltimore because of conventions. Well i will say that i haven't been to either city because of conventions. Both statements are irrelevant. What is relevant is that a convention center for a city like Cleveland will be hard pressed to show a return on the investment.

I agree that cities need convention centers, they are a piece of the whole. But it's just like the stadiums that were billed to save the day. A new convention center will NOT do that. And if planned poorly a convention center could kill a part of downtown. Bottom line is that a city should never bet the house on a convention hall saving the day.

Stadiums aren't even worthy of comparison. I'll be first in line to tell you that building a football stadium that is used eight times a year is a waste.

There aren't enough places in the U.S. to hold solid conventions. That's the problem. People go to Orlando and Vegas because those are the two places with enough space to hold big events. Atlanta, Chicago and L.A. get second place. Keep in mind also that the bulk of conventions and trade shows happen in large ballroom type facilities, and Cleveland has few locations that can scale to accommodate that. Vegas has that market cornered, but really only by default. A lot of industries would rather not do conventions there because it's too distracting.

When you look at Baltimore or Columbus, I don't know how you can not see the cause and effect. Ditto for Rosemont outside of Chicago.

This all rolls back to the casino issue. Casinos generate a buttload of cash. Places like Detroit might be in a hopeless downward spiral, or just didn't set up a good deal, but none of the Ohio cities are that far gone, especially when you consider that there's plenty of growth in the suburbs. The casinos have been damn good for Windsor and Niagara Falls too.

I resent that. There is nothing spiraly about Detroit's downfall - we're headed straight down. ;)

Jeff, you mentioned Rosemont. They actaully got approved for a casino (they built the parking lot) to only lose it because of mob ties to the mayor. You would think that if someone wanted a casino, they could buy the vote!

The problem with casino's sometimes is the state or whomever decides where the money goes. Like anything else they expect profits to just keep going up, they spend thinking the profits will keep going up. But most of the time it's not true. Profits will be great for the first couple years, but then they actually drop. But the goverment spends thinking more will come, thus making more debt for taxpayers. I went gambling in Windsor and thought I was at a local high school.