new(er) policy?

^ - ACTUALLY, the magnets don't stop the train even on a level surface. They do slow it down enough to where the friction in the wheel bearings and between the wheels and track can take care of the rest. Remove the friction and the train won't stop.

ok, say i understand for a second that, yes the new policy is excessive, but understandable in that CF does not want another accident/lawsuit...ok...but...why keep the rides closed during sprinkling....and open during actual rainfall?

chris *** Edited 8/16/2007 11:18:38 PM UTC by Chris Holderfield***

My guess (and this is only a guess) is that for a light sprinkle, the time to transfer off a train, and then transfer one back on when the rain stops, isn't worth it if the rain is only going to be 5-10 minutes.
If the rain is going to be lasting a while, taking the 5-10 minutes to transfer off a train to open up that buffer block is worth it.

Chris Holderfield said:
i understand safety is a necessary precaution, but being this overly-cautious is just plain ignorant....

Is that based on your decades of experience in running an amusement park?

Something has changed at the park this year as far as its rain policy goes. When I went to the park on the 4th of July there was some light sprinkles that moved through the park that didn't even get the concrete wet. I was over in the area of Blue Streak and Raptor during this time and both rides shut down for a few minutes. Another one of my friends at the park was over by Magnum and Gemini and the same thing happened and he sent me a text message about it. Even though there were some sprinkles, the sun was still out.

For the next 30 minutes (while the sun was still out) Raptor and Blue Streak cycled empty trains. For one thing, it's ridiculous for Blue Streak to cycle empty trains since all brakes on the ride are covered with a roof, on top of that it's even worse to cycle empty trains for a sprinkle that came through quickly. My friend was frustrated watching the same thing over at Gemini and Magnum.

Either I must be wearing one hell of a tinfoil hat because that's the craziest conspiracy I've ever seen, or some new policy is in place that ensures the tracks are dry before running the roller coasters. The same roller coasters that ran in heavy rain for years, others for decades!

Safety isn't ignorant at all, Cedar Point is not in the business of killing people. The park needs to cover their butt, but I think the rain policy is Excessive with a capital 'E.'

~Rob Willi

That's the problem with having lawyers who have never been on a ride much less operated one make the decisions.

I regret to inform the doubters, but there ARE new policies and they involve basically any ride with friction brakes going down to one train in any type of rain. But since there is an enormous amount of effort (winching, etc) to take rides like Magnum, Iron Dragon, and Corkscrew down to one train, they just close instead.

There are also new procedures for opening back up after rain. I can't quote anything, but they more or less say you have to cycle each train a certain number of times (I think the number is five) and do a block check. This takes a minimum of about 20-25 minutes on a ride like Magnum and probably an hour plus on Dragster.

I say it's ridiculous. If they need to "cover their butts," drop to two trains. That still leaves an extra block in between trains. Or better yet - fix the issue that really caused the incident. People need to start using their heads around that place. And if they aready are, they need to have them examined. Maybe "excessive moisture" is causing them to have problems thinking straight.

JuggaLotus said:
^ - ACTUALLY, the magnets don't stop the train even on a level surface. They do slow it down enough to where the friction in the wheel bearings and between the wheels and track can take care of the rest. Remove the friction and the train won't stop.

If you ignore friction, the train won't stop mathematically, but it does converge. This means the while the train won't technically stop, it won't pass a certain point either. An analogy is if your standing 10' from a wall at 1 second, 5' from the wall at 1 second, 2.5' at 2 seconds, 1.25' at 3 seconds and continue to half the distance every second.

The train will follow a simular situation and approach a certain point. The train will converge relatively quickly so after a certain number of seconds the train will be moving at a speed slower than can be reasonably measured and will move a distance that cannot be reasonably measured either. While technically it will continue to move forever, there is a certain point where I'll consider it stopped because it's speed and distance moved is negligible.

In the real world, friction acts fairly strongly and in the case I mentioned will stop the train while the last car is still on the slope. I estimate that the train would be able to travel roughly 3 feet further without friction or the drive tires in the waiting area under the said conditions on Millennium Force.

As for the recent policies in the rain, they are clearly erring on the safe side. Some rides cannot run in the rain and they do not. Other rides are fully capable of running in the rain and have proven so for years. While I don't like what they are doing any more than anyone else, I understand why they are going about this as is. Management personnel are legally liable to the safety of their guests. They know that water effects the operation of their rides. They know that there has been multiple water related incidents at various parks including their own. They have a lot working against them and little working with them to justify keeping the rides open. It becomes an easier decision when you consider the consequences of continuing to operate the rides as is.

Its well noted although speculation that is was a maintenance issue that caused the incident with the rain's assistance. The people who are choosing the operate or close the rides aren't those who are maintaining them. It goes with the saying "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." While they are erring to the side of safety further than I would, I can understand their decision since they are liable for the consequences of their actions.

Yes, but not operating in the rain doesn't fix the issue (if this IS the issue) of condensation building up in the brake mechanisms and causing a brake failure. Yes, the rain probably contributed to this because if the brake closed, but not completely, the rain may have allowed the train to slide through.

But what happens when so much condensation builds up that the brake doesn't close at all? How does not running in the rain fix that issue?

They are taking a maintenance problem and fixing it with operations. The two should be exclusive.

I think CP's new policy might have to do with their public image. While enthusiasts like us see the Magnum collision as a minor mishap that may have been the result of poor maintenance, the general public doesn't see that. When CP blamed the rain for the malfunction, they immediately set it in the general public's mind that roller coasters may not be as safe when they run in the rain. By shutting down most of their coasters now, they're telling all the average Joes out there that they are more concerned about the safety of their guests than anything.

If internal condensation is truely the issue, then I could see maintenance quietly fixing the issue. All it takes is a maintenance guy to take the time to go to the brake and open a few valves to let the water out daily. In addition to that, maintenance added the brake.

On operations side, they "fixed" the problem by increasing ride closure in the rain. There won't be the combined effect during rain operation if the ride isn't running. Also, since they have not admitted to maintenance issues, it will seem as though they have done nothing. This is where the brake for the given ride and changed policy for all rides comes in. It's showing that something was done about the situation in case something happens in the future. A court won't see the maintenance issues down the road but they probably will see that rain was the cause.

With the issue of internal condensation, it can reduce the rate at which the brakes close. It will not stop the brakes from closing or reduce the rate below a certain point. They probably reached that point.

Jeff said:

Chris Holderfield said:
i understand safety is a necessary precaution, but being this overly-cautious is just plain ignorant....

Is that based on your decades of experience in running an amusement park?

noooo.. thats based on my past experiences, and as HeyIsn'tThatRob? posted:

...The same roller coasters that ran in heavy rain for years, others for decades!

Safety isn't ignorant at all, Cedar Point is not in the business of killing people. The park needs to cover their butt, but I think the rain policy is Excessive with a capital 'E.'

i'm not sure if i mentioned this, but when there was a full rain, and maverick continued to run, all trains were operational.... *** Edited 8/17/2007 11:19:38 PM UTC by Chris Holderfield***

I was in the Camp Snoopy photo booth when Mean Streak got hit by lightning. It was loud, and freaked me out.

Like Jeff said earlier, there's at least one other factor besides the rain. I've been at the Point in a variety of weather and the reactions have been quite varied. One day they were running Maverick trains while it was still raining a bit and people were on them less than 5 minutes after it had stopped raining, another day they shut the whole thing down for a few sprinkles and it was about 15 minutes before it came back up. Another day I got to the park and all the coasters were running empty. I stood outside MF's entrance for about 35 minutes in the sunshine not even realizing it had sprinkled and watched empty Mantis, MF and Iron Dragon cars cycle through. The difference in reactions to the weather doesn't make sense to me, but the only information I have is what I can see around me at that time. Being out there, you can't always see what the weather's like, though I sometimes get frustrated, it makes CP that much better for me that they do take safety so seriously and I want to see them keep their clean record.

wow, when i worked that cp in the mid 80's, a sprinkle shut down the coasters. i remember going to test ride gemini after a rain. that was the big ride back then lol. even white water landing shut down during a hard rain because of the censors at the bottom of the hill that would keep the boats spaced. now that was hard to explain to guests.

I'm still trying to figure out what a censor would be doing on a ride... ;)

They work for the photo booths.

We were at the park yesterday and it started to sprinkle in the evening. Like the original poster, it was just a drop here and there. It didn't really get us wet walking around the park, and the midways certainly didn't appear wet.

But, basically every coaster in the park went down. We did a loop around the park and practically everything was closed. I did see them transferring trains off of Cork, but the sign out front said closed. TTD, Magnum and Maverick were closed. We found Mine Ride open running one train (they were running three all day) and the same with Mean Streak. So, we got on both. Later we found out Millennium went down for mechanical and rain, but then reopened in the light rain later. To our amazement, Wildcat was running later in the rain too. I believe Mantis and Iron Dragon re-opened too.

I guess my point was that almost all coasters closed when the drizzle started. I'm guessing this was to transfer off trains. We must've just caught them all at the wrong time. But, it seemed like most opened up later with single train operation in the rain. Maverick didn't reopen all night. It was down for 6+ hours for mechanical.

I've never seen the Mine Ride run 3 trains.

To make matters worse it sucks even more that the indoor coaster gets shut down in the rain, lol.