July 1st, 2005

"Attendence is way down this year already"

http://www.pointbuzz.com/news.htm?id=647

The only thing down is the yearly, and that has really only been Knotts' fault.

Cedar Fair's press release is talking about the company as a whole, and makes no mention of Cedar Point individually. If Dorney is up 11% and the waterparks are up 22%, and yet the chain as a whole is only up 1%, some of the rest of them have to be down. Why don't they mention the attendance of their flagship park? Well, probably because it isn't doing so hot. And then there was an article about PKI where I got an 8% decrease figure. I guess that might have been for the company as a whole through May. So maybe things have improved since then.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050625/BIZ01/506250341/1076/BIZ
(fourth paragraph under "Better is Better")

I don't think people are not coming because they installed seatbelts on Corkscrew or because they are fed up with autospiels, or even because they hear that operations aren't what they were in the past. Those things take time to drag a park down. But I think the Dragster fiasco of the last two seasons might be playing a role and maybe even the MF seatbelt fiasco of last year. And rather than blowing away every guest that walks through the gate like they did in the past, now they do just enough to take their money and keep them quiet.

Magnum's Freeway doesn't bother me or anyone else on this site because we know it's not a ride entrance and we know what Freeway is. But to the 50 guests an hour that walk up there only to be turned around, it's a needless inconvenience that could be fixed very easily by doing what I mentioned or maybe even better signage or another way. And to the five or six guests a week who take the time to curse out the host who directs them to the regular entrance, apparently, it is a big deal.

Why are we saying that crappy operations and not taking care of the little things don't matter to the average guest at Cedar Point, when we've all made fun of Six Flags for years and watched them fall into the toilet for the same type of things? No, CP isn't to that point yet, but if they start ignoring all the things we've been talking about and continue to get cheaper and cheaper with the experience all while charging us more and more every year, they will be. Jeff and many others have praised CP in the past for "just getting it." For little things like the new mat on the floor at Wicked Twister or rehabbing the Dodgem building that was falling apart. But why should we just sit and do nothing when it seems they are, "not getting it." How will they know if no one says aything?

Walt said:
I still don't understand why everyone is so miserable and maybe I never will.

Who is miserable? I see a lot of people who think the park can do better in a lot of areas, but I don't see anyone being miserable. If an amusement park not doing its best was the worst thing in my life, I know life would be a lot easier to deal with!

If the park is apathetic to complaints, then they've already lost customers. If they look at this forum and think, "What a bunch of babies, they don't know what it takes to run a park," then they truly have lost that lovin' feeling.

I doubt that's the case.

And rather than blowing away every guest that walks through the gate like they did in the past, now they do just enough to take their money and keep them quiet.

I disagree. I don't think the typical guest experience has changed. The biggest problems revolve around Intamin. I know guests don't care who is at fault. But outside of not buying from Intamin anymore, what's the park going to do?

How will they know if no one says aything?

My original point was not that we shouldn't provide valuable feedback. My point was that it seems that so many around here are miserable being at the park. I think we let our enthusiast side get in the way of just having fun.

Who is miserable? A lot of regulars around here ... at least that's the impression I get.

"I can't agree more that the last few years, things seem to have de-generated really badly"

"Things all over the park have been changing, and most of them not for the better."

"Hopefully Hildebrant will put an end to some of this maddness by next year, but I'm not holding my breath."

"People won't go if the operations suck."

"The whole parks' employee morale (at least the day I was there) looked quite poor"

"There were a few of us that saw the writing on the wall last season and luckily got out at the right time. If things don't change for the better quickly, I'm afraid we're going to be witnessing this downward spiral for quite some time."

"the atmosphere is changing"

Those aren't complaints about specific things. Those are comments about the park in general. These are people saying we've got a park-wide crisis on our hands. They're not people who sound like they're having fun when they're at the park.

Maybe they're not miserable - maybe they just refuse to talk about any of the fun they're having.

*** Edited 7/4/2005 2:58:39 PM UTC by Walt***

As my mom once told me "I woulden't yell at you if I didn't care" This is what it comes down to Walt we yell aka complain because we care.

I can't remember the last time I had a bad experience at the park. Except for my coasterbuddy no longer able to ride MF due to the seatbelt situation, we've had a great time each of the three times we've been so far this year. That, of course, is not a CP issue, but an Intamin one.

I think because I've watched the park grow since 1966, I have a different take on things. There is so much more to do now than there was even 10 years ago let alone nearly 40 years ago.

It doesn't bother me when a ride is down because, honestly, how can anyone complain when there are so many more rides to choose from?

The only complaint I'd have is operators not being able to interact with the public like they used to (although there are still those who have made an impression) and the rising costs of food and drinks. I still refuse to pay $3 for a bottle of water. But on the other hand, I have not yet been refused a free glass of ice water from any of the stands.

Complaining ... ok. But can't we do it in a more positive way? And honestly yes it could be improved but will it? Slow dispatch times and crappy service at the food stands are more of a people thing. CP can’t control that. It’s the people in the Operators Booth and behind the counter. They are ones that need more enthusiasm. And if you aren’t happy as a fanboy or enthusiast go back to being one of the GP. And no matter how "bad" Cedar Point gets. Ill still go. Think of it in real life situations... would you leave you spouse because of something small like dirt in the fingernails or slightly messy hair?

Walt, you're reading things into those posts which aren't there. None of those quotes says anyone is "miserable", they simply acknowledge that recent changes are going in the wrong direction. You could start every sentence with the phrase, "I still have a great time at Cedar Point, but ..."

I think Cedar Point is at a critical inflection point, analogous to when you stop accelerating and start decelerating. You're still going forward (the experience is still good), but you need to reverse the trend or things will eventually start going backward (becoming "miserable".)

The reason you see so many posts on the subject is because so many people care about the park. The real question to me is "If we can all see it, why can't Kinzel?"

I think the general feeling around here isn’t “that corkscrew seatbelt ruined my day.” It’s more the small things added up which have slowly taken away from the experience.

If we compare operations in 2005 with 2000, we see that in 2000 there wasn’t a MF seatbelt issue (heck anyone could practicly ride), there wasn’t a WT and dragster breaking down continuously, food service wasn’t as crappy and slow, pop wasn’t $3 (as well as food prices as a whole), capacity wasn’t slowed down by unnecessary safety constraints (see all of “magnum” threads like people on load can’t help the other person because they wont know who to write up), employees morale seemed higher (which reflects on guest service), bit’s of atmosphere weren’t lost with character ride signs and spiels, and the countless other stuff I see on here daily.

It’s not 1-1=0, more like 100-1-1-1-1-1…. etc and we end up somewhere around a 83, which isn’t bad, and still better than most parks, but there is always room for improvement, epically for a park that prides itself on being #1! I certainly still enjoy going to the park, and know about the changed and dont let it take away from the day. To be the best though, every little thing counts.

People always though i was crazy because I wanted to be a sweep, but when I went to work there I saw that Environmental Services was one of the few departments that still had the ole ”were cedar point, where the best and we’ll prove it!” kind of attitude, which most departments now it seems it’s “We’ll do enough to get by.” In fact Environmental Services, seems to be one of the few areas which effort was put in place to improve guest services (instead of quietly removing it) by re-installing the courtesy corps. While most of us here this was probably unnoticed because we don’t need to ask a sweep, restroom attendant, or GU person anything (because we know everything ;)), it was a little thing that I felt improve service, and there were positive letters from guest to show for it.

I think that alone shows that management sees that guest have not been as pleased as in the past, but a lone sweep isn’t going to make up for poor service in other areas. There has to be a park wide effort to want to give guests the best service possible, and hopefully Hildebrant is the man to lead the charge.

OldCPer said:

It doesn't bother me when a ride is down because, honestly, how can anyone complain when there are so many more rides to choose from?

Exactly!!! So Wicked Twister is closed, why not ride one of the other 45 rides (I didn't include the kiddy ones)? No one can tell me that their day is ruined because of a ride closure, because there is so much else to do.

People always though i was crazy because I wanted to be a sweep, but when I went to work there I saw that Environmental Services was one of the few departments that still had the ole ”were cedar point, where the best and we’ll prove it!” kind of attitude, which most departments now it seems it’s “We’ll do enough to get by.”

I thought I was the only one who wanted to be a sweep!

Walt, I think you quoted me 2 or 3 times as being one of the "miserable" people. Those statements were somewhat taken out of context since they were mostly the closing statements about issues I had previously addressed within each respective post.

I had a decent time on my visit, but my two friends who hadn't been to the park in several years didn't. Four of the major coasters (Dragster, MF, Magnum, WT) and were down at one point during the day and they said they wouldn't be coming back anytime soon. Granted, that day wasn't exactly CP's shining moment, but the park had it's chance to impress them and it fell short. They weren't even regulars and they agreed that the autospiels were much less exciting than the few rides that still had ride ops spieling.

Someone asked why we are complaining about the little problems and making them into such a big deal. Well what sets a good experience apart from a great experience? The little things! Joe E. is spot on with his explanation of how the lack of every little thing takes away from the overall experience at the park.

FluffyliketheForce, you said that essentially management and supervision can't influence how well day to day operations run. I'm sorry, but isn't that the whole reason behind having a hierarchy within park operations and food services? In previous years there never seemed to be a problem with the workers being enthusiastic about their jobs, so obviously management does have an effect. They used to do positive re-enforcement and give compliments to workers and give them a sense of pride for the good job they were doing, but anymore they have turned to negative re-enforcement and use the threat of write-ups and termination to manage ride operations. If management is failing to spark enthusiasm in the workers how do they expect the workers to convey enthusiasm towards the guests?

There are a few things that have changed in previous years that have effected employee morale. Once again it comes back to the little things. For some reason the park decided to no longer allow employees the ability to park in the Soak City parking lot. Even if they work all the way back at Mean Streak they have to park in the front of the park and walk all the way back. I have never once seen the Soak City parking lot filled to capacity (outside of parking ban days and then the point is moot), so I don't understand the logic behind this. Now this might not sound like much of a hinderance, but it's one of the many things that has been taken away from employees in recent years and they start to add up. This effects employee morale which, in turn effects the guest experience.

The one downfall of writing text in a forum is that you can't give the proper inflexion to your statements. Many of my statements have been of concern, not of idle pissing and moaning.

...But don't get me wrong, everyone once in a while I do complain about being annoyed by certain things. ;)

*** Edited 7/5/2005 12:16:51 AM UTC by CP_bound***

FluffyliketheForce said:
Slow dispatch times and crappy service at the food stands are more of a people thing. CP can’t control that.

Nonsense! Good managers know how to motivate, instill pride and hold their people accountable in a positive way.

It's like lose change. After awhile it adds up.

I have to agree with CP Bound in the fact that it's just little things that really kill employe morale, such as the parking bans. The 90 cent cups of fountain pop in the cafe and stockade. The way they treat you in housing (Walk in and get searched), the way they got most of their money back between housing, cafe and wardrobe. Heck, the crap pay. The fact that lots of people are fired for seemingly dumb reasons (Not to say that there aren't good reasons to fire people - because we all know there are a lot more good reasons than bad ones).

Managers easily have the power to brighten up an employees day, and in turn, brighten guests days. There were many times a simple thank you or we appreciate how you handled this situation would have been nice, instead we were always told how we can do it better.

One positive I want to point out are some of the full service restaurants, mainly TGIFridays and Famous Dave's. In the last couple of years I've received consistently good service and food at both of those restaurants. I've also been to Breakwater Cafe, Bay Harbor and Game Day Grill and have had very good experiences.

I know that in the past there have been complaints about slow food and service, especially at TGIF when it first opened. In the last two years or so I think they have made some real and meaningful improvements, and I've been very pleased with the dining experience.

TTD is sinking too! said:

I think Cedar Point is at a critical inflection point, analogous to when you stop accelerating and start decelerating. You're still going forward (the experience is still good), but you need to reverse the trend or things will eventually start going backward (becoming "miserable".)

The reason you see so many posts on the subject is because so many people care about the park. The real question to me is "If we can all see it, why can't Kinzel?"

I totally agree with this viewpoint, it is the little things that put together do add up to big things, and the need for attention to detail is extremely important. I think park operations is suffering from letting the little things slip, and not placing enough importance on how much those things are vital to guest satisfaction.

I certainly think that Dick Kinzel can see what is going on. I may be way off, since I know absolutely nothing about what goes on behind the scenes, but the sudden retirement of Mr. Keller seemed kind of odd to me. Was he encouraged to retire for one reason or another? Wouldn't surprise me if he was.

I agree that the park is at a somewhat critical point. Everything I've heard about Mr. Hildebrandt from people who are in the position to judge is extremely positive. I think the people at the top are well aware that there are some things that need fixing. And I also think they put people into place to get the job done, it will just take a little time.

And you know, that's the thing that I have been most positive about. I absolutely welcome the change in bringing Hildebrandt back to Cedar Point. As VP of marketing, I thought he was conservative where he should have been, and able to take risks where it made sense (even if I didn't always agree with him). But above all, he clearly loves the company, and loves the park. I don't know if Keller had that kind of passion because practically no one outside of the inner circle ever talked to him.

If you don't see meaningful change in the next 12 to 18 months, then we can start going the gloom and doom route. :)

Just a thought- When I am managing other individuals in a workplace setting, and hear a bunch of complaints- I don't just write it off as a bunch of "chronic complainers". My deal is to stop and actually consider what is being complained about. Some simply like to complain, and some are speaking the truth. Maybe Cedar Point would be well-served to read what is being said here. For the most part, the posters here have comments that are well thought out, and make a point. Does CP employ "secret shoppers" who would experience the things mentioned on this site? To me, Cedar Point is absolutely my favorite place on earth to vacation. When a ride breaks down or other situations as mentioned happen, I get pleasure out of introducing my 5 yo niece and 1 yr old nephew to the pleasures of CP. We are building the next generation of memories. I remarked to my husband this time- we were there the week of 6/27, staying at the Breakers for the week,(and will be back many times this season)- that after you have been on a ride like MF so many times, the experience becomes more than the air time, or the wait, or the drop. It becomes a much more evolved and inclusive experience- such as "Remember the time when we rode the MF and ..." It is a much richer feeling. The minute we get there we are kids again! But the flip side of that is that you do tend to notice things that are out of whack, like the macho nacho stand down by the museums that has predictably terrible service and runs out of stuff. I think people here are way more detailed in their comments than they would be on a comment card.

^ Coulden't of been said better.

Does CP employ "secret shoppers" who would experience the things mentioned on this site?

yes they do.

On a day to day basis, I hear very little complaints from guests about the operations of the park. The vast majority of my guests are impressed with the quality of the resort and compliment us. I hear people wishing the waterfront was deeper, but there's not anything we can do to change that.

Sometime's working long days in the sun get to me, but the management does do a good job motivating us. It means a lot to me when the top 3 people in charge of the park compliment my work area, and remember my name. There's no other place I've worked where the CEO of the company has done that.