Intamin Relationship

After all of the problems that Top Thrill Dragster has had, and after they gave the design to SFGA, do you think that this has hurt the relationship between CP and Intamin?

uh...and Wicked Twister's structural problems...and Millennium Force's various problems.

This is no new idea that Cedar Fair's feeling towards the company has suffered in the past 5 years, but we have yet to hear anything released officially that would concur with this rhetoric. The employees have an endless array of adjectives to describe Dragster and Intamin though. ;)

Trouble is, many of those adjectives are not, in fact, broadcastable.....

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Yeah who can forget those nightly welding rituals on WT during it's first season... lol.

I don't think the mechanical situations are strictly an Intamin problem. I think as rides become more extreme and push the envelope of both engineering and rider tolerance these problems will continue to exist. All companies that make 'extreme machines' have their share of issues. And sometimes it isn't all the manufacturer's fault. Example: I think Intamin wanted another 25 feet or so on the TTD track to give the catch car more room to stop. The location of the ride didn't allow for this. So thus we now have the watering system on the launch side to help keep the catch-car cool. I have heard the launch/brake tracks on KK are much longer than TTD. Could be to address this issue... who knows. Regardless if and/or when the Point decides to build a new coaster/extreme machine Intamin will still get a chance to pitch their product. I know I have been critical in the past of Intamin's rubberstamping of TTD with SF, and I still feel that way now. This (probably) short term tension may add some drama to the relationship between Intamin and CF but in the end, business is business.

Also - got a report of maint. guys installing seatbelts on one of the MF trains today. Might be this was the last train to get the new belt lengths, so all three of the trains could be the same now. Anyone else see or hear this?

CPL

What has been said above is true.

CP's three latest coasters MF, WT, and TTD are all Intamin coasters. (sorry for stating the obvious)

Cedar Point reinvented itself in 1989 with the debut of Magnum XL-200, and stayed that way through the 90's. In 2000 another decade was starting and coasters were getting built like crazy around the world. CP started this fad in the amusement industry, and they had to somehow remain a icon to the amusement industry.

Intamin took the challenge of building a new outstanding ride that CP was looking for. Millennium Force was the result. Was the ride a winner? No one would dare to argue that Intamin had produced a ride that would forever stand as one of the single best rides ever built.

Another question to ask is, what would have happened if CP didn't choose Intamin to build them a new ride? I wouldn't say CP would be a bad park, but would they still be counted as best park in the country. (we will never know)

To sort of get to the point. I think that this one product of Intamin's (MF) made CP continue to come out on top as the park with only the best. Could B&M, S&S, Vekoma, etc. have been able to do such a thing back in 2000? We will never know the answer, but I very much doubt more perfect coaster could have been choosen.

In 2000-01 people flocked to CP just to ride MF, and they all went home satisfied.

When people flock to an amusement park that means one thing to the park and one thing only... $$$$$.

Kinzel said on the Discovery Channel special back in 2001, "MF has done everything they expected it to do and even more.

To get to the main topic, CP should have a good relation with Intamin. Why wouldn't they, without Intamin, there would be no Millennium Force (duhh..). The ride made millions for Cedar Point. And brought more international guest into the park than ever before. It expanded CP's market by a lot. Intamin was one of the top reason that was accomplished.

In 2002 Intamin built Wicked Twister for CP. The ride was amazing, but by no means was it the most popular ride or the best ride around. WT also was plagued with mechanical problems. The ride didn't do well its debut season, and still has some coughs now and again. Did WT do what CP was looking for? It did bring people back to that section of park. It did make the park look more attractive. It did bring in more attendence than the following year. It did bring on new records to CP (aka: easier marketing tools). I see the ride as a sucess.

Now comes Intamins one and only "oops?" coaster. (aka: Top Thrill Dragster) Like WT, this ride had (has) a great deal of mechanical problems. It had the worst opening season of any other ride that CP has ever opened. But, let's look at what the ride did do. TTD did blow the minds of every coaster ethusiast out there, as well as the GP, with the annoucment of this mega machine. When it ran, it did satisfy riders. It did once again bring more attendence into the park. It did once again bring new records to the park. It also did something that can only compare to MF's opening; it brought in more international attention to the park.

CP had its local surounding's full, and undivided attention for a long time now. International attention, not so much. MF and TTD did the job very well.

To end this reply I will say that CP's relationship with Intamin shouldn't be looked just by how well their rides run. But, what their rides brought to the park in recent years. When an individual looks up roller coasters on Google (or something like that) and come across Cedar Point. What do they see first, MF and TTD for sure. They see they were voted as the best in many categories. That's when they plan a trip to CP and make up their mind, "is CP really the best park on the planet." The GP always tell the truth and have told it well. CP has done well, and MF and TTD had a big factor on this, WT did too.

(sorry in advance for some spelling errors)

*** Edited 6/8/2005 4:35:31 AM UTC by Gomez***

"Tallest and fastest" is probably not a major attraction for the GP - most people I speak to in lines don't choose to go to CP because of TTD - they go there because they like amusement parks, and CP is a good one.

Any business needs to look long-term at its customer base, and repeat customers are good for the bottom line.

That said, when the GP go to the park, and then discover they have the "tallest and fastest" there, they are going to want to ride it. And when you then annoy them with a broken/semi-function ride, you have to wonder if they'll come back or not, and what kind of word-of-mouth marketing you're getting. Have a look at many SFI parks to see the long-term effects of this on a grander scale - many broken/semi-functional rides and some parks, instead of just one ride.

So if you're talking about what TTD brought to the park, part of that issue is what guests took AWAY from the park when they went home. Angry (or even disappointed) guests are not good in the long-term. That is the issue that financially-savvy CP will considering when they choose who builds their next coaster.

The good news is that at least TTD seems to be running much better from what I've seen this year :)

I think Gomez's post was excellent and summed up the situation very well. Millennium Force put Intamin on the map, and minus the recent seatbelt fiasco, has ran pretty much error-free. WT and TTD have had far more problems, but also had the same effect that MF did (not so much WT, but still a worthy addition).

Two of the park's star attractions are Intamins, and they continue to deliver. I don't see this being the end of Intamin at CP by a longshot. They seem to be the only company that takes chances and tries new concepts. I'd rather have a cutting-edge ride like TTD that has a lot of down-time then a generic cookie-cutter, "been there done that" coaster that is always open.

By building the tallest and fastest rollercoasters, both CP and Intamin took a risk, it was just like any other business/financial action. Anything you do has a risk and CP/Intamin was willing to take it. In my opinion, it was worth it, and I'm sure CP feels the same way becuase of the attendence increases and profits. This is why CP is the world's greatest amusement park.

Gomez said:

Cedar Point reinvented itself in 1989 with the debut of Magnum XL-200, and stayed that way through the 90's.

I really like your post Gomez. Articulates the point much better than I am capable of. Something to chew on: I think an argument could be made that CP reinvented itself even before this. The additions of Corkscrew in '76 and Gemini in '78 represented a major investment in thrill rides. 5.15 million for the 2 of them - a considerable chunk of change for an amusement park in the 70's. Both coasters were record breakers - Corkscrew was the first coaster to have 3 inversions, and Gemini was the tallest and fastest (plus it was a racer!).

CPLurker

Top Thrill 182 said:
and after they gave the design to SFGA

What are you talking about "giving" SFGA the design? Six Flags paid for the ride, they weren't given it. Intamin only cares about making money, as is just about every business on the globe. They could care less whether or not them designing Kingda Ka for Great Adventure pissed Cedar Point off...if it even did.

Thanks for the comments.

During the 80's roller coasters were pretty much the all the same. Mega Arrow loopers were biggest rides at the time and coasters were really limited to around 150 feet or so. Magnum broke that and proved that loops aren't what it is all about.

And for CP looking for people coming back. I don't think one or two rides (even though TTD and MF are the best) won't take away to many people. The beauty of visiting CP is the ride selection has so much to offer that two rides being down will not wreak your day. For the people coming to just ride TTD are just stupid to do such a thing. Many members on here know very well that you can't do that.

There are tons of families who make their way to CP every year. Some go twice a year even. Not many parks can say they've been part of family traditions for more than a generation. You ask all those families and they'll tell you, they've had good times and bad times at CP. None the less, they still come back every year and don't usually come home disappointed.

Look at the attendence in recent years. CP is not in any danger of having a bad year. 3.3 million, 3.2 million; 100,000 people make no difference to them.

And please don't make this a: Intamin Sucks/B&M is better. or Intamin built KK to piss off CP thread. Grow up people.
*** Edited 6/8/2005 6:04:17 PM UTC by Gomez***

I think CP dose care about 100,000 people. They want to go up not down in attendence.

And the 100,000 drop between 03 and 04 can just as easily be attributed to the crappy weather last summer as to the downtime and seatbelt of those two coasters.

Yes Cedar Point wants to go up in attendance, but they aren't going to go into full panic mode because their attendance dropped by 3%. With numbers that big, 100,000 isn't really that big a number.

100,000 equals $5 million in gate admissions. That makes a difference to me and as a unitholder I hope it makes a difference to them.

If each of those folks buys a bottled soda that is another $300,000. Add lunch and it is $2.5 million.

Oh, it matters.

I'd have to disagree though. I haven't looked at the last few years of attendance figures, but basing management decisions (prices, advertising etc) off a single year decline is knee-jerk.

As an example, if average daily attendance on a nice sunny day is 70,000. But when its cold and rainy the attendance drops to 50,000. This means you would only need only 5 days of rain to cause the type of decline that was seen last year. We all remember how much the weather was out of whack last year.

Now, if this continues into this year, then I think they need to rethink their strategy to get things pointed back up, but it takes more than 1 year of data to make a trend. I can see your point as a stockholder, you want every bit of income (and yes 7.8 million is a decent chunk of change) but to spaz about a dip in attendance is pointless unless the trend continues into this year.

Gomez said:

There are tons of families who make their way to CP every year. Some go twice a year even. Not many parks can say they've been part of family traditions for more than a generation.

This is an excellent statement. Even WDW is just now starting to get 3rd generation visitors. My great grandparents visited CP back in the 1920's when most people came to the Point via train and then ferry for some sun and fun on the beach. My grandparents used to come see the big swing bands in the early 40's when they were dating before grandpa headed off to Europe for the War. Guess we tend to take a family tradition like CP for granted because it has always been there.

CPL

Juggalotus is correct. The attendence is in no way dropping. The park hasn't changed in any way, service wise or price. The year TTD opened 3.3 million is a lot of people. CP's normal attendence is usually 3.2 million. Big new rides are what pull in the extra 3%.

Saying CP doesn't worry about that isn't exactly true. I'm sure they do worry, but like it has been said, they mostly just had bad year and regain themselves the following season.

Sept. 11 knocked down tourism a lot in 2001 and 2002. Amusement parks were directly effected, but if I recall CP had a rise in their attendence in 2002.

CP is in no way struggling to get people into their park. Without advertising, they'd still get over a million people, probably.

They're the best park for a reason.

But...there is a breaking point in any business and I think there are indicators out there that Cedar Point might be hitting the ceiling on price increases alone adding to the bottom line.

I just don't think the recent trend of per cap increasing while attendance decreases is something that will last forever.

Maintaining the attendance numbers is the challenge and CP has made some decisions as of late that I believe threatens that goal.

Here's some instructions for you 182

1) Grab your shoulders
2) Push down

Good, now your head should be removed from your backside.

You can assure us? Are you Dick Kinzel in disguise?

Do you know what the contract between CP and Intamin said? I really wouldn't be suprised if Intamin retained all rights to the design of the ride and all patents pertaining there-to. They can go ahead and sell the design to whoever else wants to fork over the money.

Secondly, I doubt there was much involvement on CP's part. They said, "Hey we want to go really fast and really high, got any ideas?" and Intamin showed them some ideas, CP picked one. The rest is history.

CP cares to the extent that if other parks are able to make these kinds of expenditures, that means overall the theme park buisness is doing pretty damn well. It's when noone else is able to invest more than 4-5 million in CI each year that you have to start worrying.

No, I can't say for sure what was said in the building of TTD, but it doesn't seem like you have any amazing facts to prove me otherwise. Both points here are speculation so lets just leave it at that. All I'm saying is that after spending $25,000,000 on a new ride to be the tallest and fastest, I would be a little agrivated that the records didn't stand for another few years.