How has Dick Kinzel been as a CEO?

I'm not sure if we can thank Kinzel for this, but I want to thank CF for great ride operations also!

And even ride operations have suffered in recent years. Last season was the first time in several that I felt like they actually took a step forward (at least at CP) and it was probably because of Bill Spehn. Who knows if they'll be able to keep that trend though with the powers above continuing to cut budget, positions, etc.

And I definitely agree with Loopy that Jeff's last two sentences sum up CF pretty well.

"I care that he doesn't delegate authority to the people who do. That, to me is, the ultimate failure in leadership." Yes Jeff...you have a pretty firm handle on what is wrong (and has been wrong) at Cedar Fair for...well...decades.

The talent that has either gone or been forced out at Cedar Point alone is staggering. And, I really fell for those who are still there who can't leave for one reason or another. I suppose they got their hopes up when Kinzel announced his retirement...then were dashed when he backed off that.

There is a huge difference between a CEO looking over your shoulder and a CEO who is hands on and visible. Dick has a combination of both...if he is interested in what you are doing. If he isn't interested in what you do...well...sometimes you actually benefit from that.

The company is still making money even in this economy. If I were an employee, the last thing I would want is someone to come in with new, big ideas at such a fragile time.

If you're comfortable with reactive instead of proactive leadership, yeah, but that's the last thing I'd want in this economy.

In today's world...in just about all segments of business and society...mediocrity is the new "excellent". Think about it, if an employee at a fast food joint says, "thank you...and enjoy your day" you are startled and wonder what might be wrong with that person. Average has become great, poor has become average and we give money and continue to suport the lousy when in the past we never would have done so.

Reactive leadership has become the norm...and it is one of the glaring reasons, in my opinion, that the world is in the state it is in today.

Jesz,

Fiberglass shavings / dust / unsanded fiberglass can be itchy yes. Extremely itchy in fact.

Why I say Cedar Point needs it it can maintain a glossy appearance over an extended period of time, and it can be painted a wide variety of colors, and not just solids, but you can really get artistic here. Fiberglass as decorations is a great idea. If they fade over time you can just repaint them and put another clear coat on them.

But still, the idea to take you out of this world...CP still lacks that. It's just a rollercoaster park by the beach. Nothing really makes you go "Wow I was at Cedar Point but really..I was in "whatever" a magical forest.

The best CP has come is the fall fright zones.

Cedar Point, Cedar Fair, and Kinzel need to be defined with more than just the rides...if Cedar Point were run the way it should be, with fresh and intelligent decision making, we all wouldn't be struggling to give Kinzel gold stars for something beyond a particular ride or attraction installed during his time as CEO.

Cedar Point would be absolutley nothing without it's array of rides and attractions, and that can become a problem if the only legs the company can stand on is: "yeah, well, look what we built..." Atmosphere, and connecting visitors with the park is also very important...

I think we all remember the days when, as kids, we would leave the park at night, and stare at the skyline through the back window of the car, wishing that the next visit would come sooner...there was no Maverick, or TTD, or WT then...which tells me there was something more to Cedar Point than its attractions, something that always stuck with me as a younger kid..

At the end of the day, no one will remember you for the biggest rollercoaster in the world, they will remember you for the experiences they had in your park.

mk522 said:
I think we all remember the days when, as kids, we would leave the park at night, and stare at the skyline through the back window of the car...which tells me there was something more to Cedar Point than its attractions, something that always stuck with me as a younger kid..

There is something more to the park than the attractions, just not that same effect as it did when we were younger. CP was a great place even before Magnum, Raptor, MF, TTD, and Maverick. I won't go into that any further being that everyone has there own memories of CP, but the place really needs to reconcentrate on family attractions. Let's have a Pirate Ride, Mill Race, and SF Earthquake of the 21st century! :)

Totally agree with that. If you notice in the old 1974 radio commercial someone posted, Kiddieland, Frontier Town, African Safari, steam engine trains, live musical shows, Giant Wheel and Shoot-The-Rapids were all given top billing. The only coaster mentioned was Jumbo Jet, and that was at the end of the list.

CP has gotten away from the atmosphere of the 70's and 80's and they would do well to get it back. The commercial said "ride, do and see over 100 things". The CP of today certainly has the "ride" part, but the "do and see" needs some work. A nice start would be to give live entertainment a bigger budget and bring back the Hobo Band and Beach Band.

It's funny, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that it's not the rides that I remember most about Disney World. It's not $100 million attractions either. It's mostly the experiences between attractions, and especially the food. Viewed in aggregate, yeah, these things I'm sure cost Disney some significant coin, but ultimately it's what makes me want to go there.

I think Magnum, and then Raptor several years later, set a dangerous precedent in that they delivered a huge, but temporary, boost to attendance. Millennium Force did as well. But again, that's not a sustainable growth strategy. There is a ceiling, and when you get to it, the return on investment is greatly diminished. I'm not sure how you couldn't see that.

Jeff I think you nailed it with the Disney example, but then again, I think Disney has mostly always been about atmosphere, rather than rides and attractions...

I'm not sure about the people backing Kinzel, if they truly sit there and agree with everything he says, and every choice he makes, or if there are some of them silently counting down the days until someone else walks in.

So I guess my 8 and 10 year old nephews were making it up when they were saying how much fun they had after I took them there this past Fall?

Ensign Smith said:
Case in point (no pun intended): this fall I saw him walking through Planet Snoopy. He stooped to pick up a piece of trash and throw it away.

I have to admit when I see trash at CP I ALWAYS have to pick it up too. Force of habit from working at the park I guess.

As for the topic at hand---
When Mr Kinzel retires we have NO clue what we could be in for!

Anyone remember Dan Keller?? OMG!

Jo

If I'm worried about Kinzel retiring it is only because he has driven out much of the experience and talent that REALLY got the company to where it is today.

You can have the most beautiful body in the world but...if you have no soul you are just empty. In my opinion many of my former friends and colleagues were the soul of Cedar Point/Cedar Fair...and their absence is painfully obvious.

Cedar Fair is today what Disney was ten years ago. A company being led by a man that, while popular at one time and rarely missing on decisions, is now plodding along with no real direction or purpose. Disney has turned it around under new leadership (leadership that comes with a creative mind) and Cedar Fair has that potential too.

As for kids having fun being the barometer of success, I'll just leave it at this:

If you went to a Detroit Lions game this year you could have had fun. You could have had some beers, a couple of dogs, had some laughs in the stands. BUT...that doesn't mean the Detroit Lions, as an organization, are headed in the right direction. Quite the contrary.

Pete said:
A nice start would be to give live entertainment a bigger budget and bring back the Hobo Band and Beach Band.

...or something traveling/atmospheric just like that. I think one of the biggest mistakes was eliminating the Doo-Wahs out in front of Coasters. You may or may not like that type of stuff, however if you look at it from a fiscal point of view, it was one of the most cost effective entertainment attractions. A staff of 5 (or was it 6?), no sets to build, no instrumental tracks to record, an apron for a costume, and situated right in the middle of the park so you couldn't miss it as you started off your day. Whether or not people decided to stay and watch is something totally different but it at least offered something. It by far had the most audience exposure than any multi-million dollar ice or extreme show for fractions of the cost.

The roaming entertainers that you see at a lot of parks would be a great addition to CP. When I was at Sea World Orlando last week they had a roaming sax quartet playing Christmas songs. It was really nice. But since CP's policy on everything these days is to make budgets smaller, I wouldn't count on any additions that involve hiring more people.

Zoug68 said:
So I guess my 8 and 10 year old nephews were making it up when they were saying how much fun they had after I took them there this past Fall?

You completely missed the point that myself and others were making about the park...and no one here is saying that it's not possible to have fun, but the atmosphere today is very different (and I would think you would have at least figured that much out) than it was during the classic days of CP. Fun, defined today, is not the same as what fun was twenty, or even ten years ago..

On a side note, comments like that really dredge down intelligent conversations, why it's so hard to actually read within context is beyond me..

What does Dan Keller have to do with anything, other than the fact that he was probably appointed by Kinzel?

Again, as a unit holder, I hold Kinzel accountable for the decline in unit price, and I'm not happy about it. Ever since the Paramount acquisition, the market has been outperforming FUN, and I think it's because the people who watch the company closely aren't pleased with how things are going. Instead of the acquisition being a massive opportunity to take the company to the next level with great people, we've seen forced culture change and business changes where they didn't make sense.

A former Paramount employee from the main office in Charlotte told me about an instance where Kinzel and friends were in the office allegedly measuring desks and staking their claim on stuff there, right before they let them all go. If that's true, that's not something that anyone with any ounce of class does. I have no issue with laying the people off, but you don't treat people like that.

Another former upper management type said that if Kinzel was in the air, he couldn't make any decisions without running them through him. It didn't matter if it was concerning a budgeted purchase, it just wasn't allowed. That's the kind of micromanagement that crushes an organization.

mk522 said:
Fun, defined today, is not the same as what fun was twenty, or even ten years ago..

I think we have to be careful with that kind of comparison though. Nostalgia (and youth) always paint a rosy picture. They can do things completely differently now than they did then and still give guests a great experience. The problem is that there are some big areas (food) that are severely lacking.

Jeff - those are downright scary examples.