Guest taken to hospital after metal object falls off TTD

Friday, August 20, 2021 7:09 AM
BlueGemini's avatar

Well officially closed for the season

https://www.news5cleveland.com/entertainment/cedar-point/cedar-poin...ured-guest


42 Times straight on Gemini

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Friday, August 20, 2021 8:34 AM
djDaemon's avatar

Kevinj said:

I also cant imagine what from Iron Dragon could fall to cause such serious damage. That ride is not that close to the queue of TTD, especially considering the modest speeds it is travelling.

While I agree that the statement from the park sure seems to convey that they're certain where the object came from, ID's helix prior to the second lift is approximately 27 feet from the nearest edge of a TTD queue canopy, so the bottom of an ID train would be around, what, 20 feet away? And even at relatively low speed, a sufficiently heavy object such as the one pictured above could do a ton of damage.

But again, that the park's message was so specific makes it pretty clear to me that the object in question came from the train. And it may have been mentioned already, but the object that struck the guest may not be what was pictured above - it is possible the pictured object became dislodged from the track, causing the actual offending object to become dislodged from the train. The two objects wouldn't necessarily have the same flight path.


Brandon

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Friday, August 20, 2021 9:12 AM

Maybe part of the catch car? I think the catch car has a bit more of a rusted look to it that parts of the train or track?

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Friday, August 20, 2021 9:34 AM

It is possible that the park's message may have been what they believed to be the case at the time in terms of where the part came from, and that assumption may have been inaccurate. These things happen, especially early on.

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Friday, August 20, 2021 10:04 AM
Cargo Shorts's avatar

Josh, a fast moving object that ricochets off another has a very brief encounter. Over the many years of cuts I have noticed it generally takes a few seconds for appreciable blood to appear. In addition whatever ogre allegedly picked it up could have and probably did wipe it off. I wouldn't put much weight into the absence of visible blood.

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Friday, August 20, 2021 10:07 AM
XS NightClub's avatar

Kip clearly is not following the advice of an attorney.

Between Kip and Nurse Ratchet, I have even deeper serious doubts about the future of society..


Sandusky Fan.

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Friday, August 20, 2021 10:19 AM

If the picture floating around Al Gore's internet is indeed the object that struck the victim, then we are talking about a failure of not one, but two bolts at the exact same time.

I would find it very hard to believe that both pieces failed at the exact same time, which leads me to believe there are some major issues with the inspections that are allegedly completed on a regular basis.

Also, if these bolts did in fact fail, which it appears they did, then how many other bolts on TTD are in the same condition?

The amount of investigation that will have to go into this is astronomical. Strength tests, durability tests, etc. Even if the ride does eventually open again, I can see the investigation taking much longer than a year. The likelihood of TTD being ready for the beginning of next season, in my humble opinion, is slim to none.


Campfreak06, reborn

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Friday, August 20, 2021 10:25 AM

In defense of Nurse Practitioner Elizabeth Zinni...

First, I am not an expert by any means. I am simply a person in search of truth and understanding.

I love Cedar Point and I have loved the place since the 1970s, so my intent is not to bash for the sole purpose of bashing. My intent is to call balls and strikes as I see them based on the information and qualified opinions I am able to collect, for the purpose of illuminating and hopefully eventually arriving at the truth and improving safety in the future.

My girlfriend is a doctor with a major national hospital chain and 20+ years of experience. I asked her to view the EMS bodycam video, and the report Ms. Zinni filed with CP Police and give me her opinion of what transpired. She has no dog in this fight, she lives over 1000 miles from CP, and she is not a roller coaster or theme park enthusiast, though she will happily accompany me in such endeavors.

Her impressions are that the EMS video was pretty damning of the responders on site, as follows:

a) Unconscionable that they struggled so much and wasted so much time trying to get the gurney through the queue and to the victim. This should have been practiced and trained, they should have known exactly where to go and how to get it though the queue, and this is evidence of poor training and lack of preparedness of the staff on site.

b) Unconscionable that they didn't have a C-collar in their bag, especially at a place like an amusement park where falls and such can commonly occur, and where accidents can occur on rare occasions.

c) Very unprofessional that they rummaged through the bag looking for a C-collar without gloves.

d) Application of a C-collar in case of traumatic head injury and/or fall, especially if the attending medical personnel didn't witness the victim's fall to ascertain potential for spinal injury, is standard practice, because of the significant possibility of and frequent occurrence of spinal damage in traumatic head injuries. The possible risks of brain inflammation resulting from C-collar use (as discussed in the previously linked article) are far outweighed by the possibility of spinal damage.

e) It was improper to lift the victim into the gurney the way they did. She should have been collared and/or boarded.

f) In my GF's opinion, NP Zinni did not act inappropriately.

-A nurse practitioner is almost like a doctor, and receives exponentially more training than EMS personnel, who receive relatively little. As an NP with past ER experience (which Ms. Zinni's linkedin profile indicates she has), she was by far the most qualified medical professional on-scene to address this situation, at least based upon the information available to us.

-NP Zinni was correct to insist upon the C-collar, and was correct in her concerns about how the victim was lifted upon the gurney.

-NP Zinni's request for an IV was also very appropriate, especially when someone was screaming in pain. it is not uncommon for EMS personnel to insert an IV on the scene, even before the victim is placed into an ambulance. This allows for prompt administration of medication and fluids, if necessary, and she certainly could have used some pain medication without undue delay.

-Medical professionals are trained to be assertive and to exercise control in situations like this (including when off duty yet also the most qualified professional on-scene), so what came across to some as perhaps a slightly demanding tone was very appropriate in an urgent situation like this where a victim was seriously injured, ostensibly in extreme pain, and when she witnessed what she ascertained to be dangerous and improper care being administered.

-Ms. Zinni's identification of herself as having a "medical degree" and "emergency medical" qualifications was also appropriate, especially when she was rudely dismissed by the responders. She didn't say she had an MD degree. And, many people don't understand exactly what a "Nurse Practitioner" is and the training and qualifications that go along with it. They hear the word "Nurse" and perceive something along the lines of an RN. She was simply trying to communicate the fact that she was highly qualified to address the situation at hand.

We both share the opinion that CP's staff was horribly rude to Ms. Zinni, in telling her to "Shut up and go away." This was uncalled for. There was a much more professional and courteous way that they could have had this conversation with her if they didn't want her input, despite the fact that she seems to have been by far the most qualified healthcare professional at the scene.

This reminds me of a principle in aviation, known as Cockpit Resource Management or Crew Resource Management (CRM). The idea is that, in an emergency, any and all available human resources with something to contribute should be utilized in a collaborative fashion to help solve the problem, and rank (Captain, First Officer, Flight Attendant, etc.) should be of secondary concern. Many fatal airline disasters have been caused or averted by bad or good CRM.

Along these lines, it might have been more beneficial for an apparently unprepared, inadequately trained, and inadequately equipped EMS team to collaborate with a lucky on-site resource in Ms. Zinni instead of dismissing her so rudely.

The rudeness continued later in the video when someone who appears to be a supervisor says "I want her out of here" or something like that, in Ms. Zinni's presence.

We also agree that NP Zinni's actions and demeanor did not come across as "Karenesque" as some have said. She seemed to be a respectful and concerned person, and her assertiveness was measured and was the result of an urgent situation and her passion for caring for the health of others.

Let's hope the victim has a full recovery and the quality of care at the scene becomes a moot point except as a learning tool for future improvement.

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Friday, August 20, 2021 10:32 AM

In response to "e", I will say this. I have had Professional Rescuer training. It's basically 1 step above a lifeguard, but one step below an EMT.

We were always taught that in the absence of proper medical equipment, do whatever you can to get the patient to the hospital as safely and quickly as possible.

I'm in no way excusing their lack of equipment. I'm just saying that they realized the gravity of the situation and did what they could given the tools they had.

I'll have to go back and watch the video, but I would hope someone IS supporting her head with the palm of their hands flat against the sides of her head as she is being transported to the ambulance.

Last edited by 2020TpForSale, Friday, August 20, 2021 10:33 AM

Campfreak06, reborn

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Friday, August 20, 2021 11:39 AM
GL2CP's avatar

Could it be that cp does not want the extra liability and risk of some unknown person influencing the process. Sure she is qualified and knows the deal but they don’t know who she is and to just go by what she is saying when they have their own ems team on site opens doors of risk. Yeah maybe the on site team needs better training but why would they deviate from in house procedures at the instruction of a stranger?


First ride; Magnum 1994

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Friday, August 20, 2021 11:49 AM

-A nurse practitioner is almost like a doctor,

No they are not at all! ---I'm a MD.

A NP can have as little as 18mths Post Baccalaureate training & 500 clinical hours. A doctor has 4yrs med school, minimum 3 yrs residency. Thus, a doctor has 7yrs Post Baccalaureate training, which amounts to 16,000+ clinical hours. You can have another 3 to 5 yrs(fellowship) beyond that if you specialize, like I did

Ms. Zinni's identification of herself as having a "medical degree"

She doesn't have a medical degree, a physician has a medical degree.

many people don't understand exactly what a "Nurse Practitioner" is and the training and qualifications that go along with it. They hear the word "Nurse" and perceive something along the lines of an RN

Actually, I do & as stated before, their training is not even close to a MD. FYI, a RN can actually have more qualifications & expertise than a NP. You can get a NP w/o actually getting or practicing as a RN first. Just b/c you are a NP doesn't mean you necessarily have more practical expertise than a RN.

Another note on your comments on EMT's, they actually have very little training, most programs are 4 to 6 months & less than 150 hours of training. They aren't necessarily qualified to do many things. To become good in the parameters of what they are legally allowed to do takes years, b/c it's mostly trial by fire. They have limited initial training. So, if you have relatively new people or ones that haven't really had a severe trauma, it may not go smoothly.

Last edited by CED23, Friday, August 20, 2021 11:52 AM
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Friday, August 20, 2021 12:12 PM

DA20Pilot said:

This reminds me of a principle in aviation, known as Cockpit Resource Management or Crew Resource Management (CRM). The idea is that, in an emergency, any and all available human resources with something to contribute should be utilized in a collaborative fashion to help solve the problem, and rank (Captain, First Officer, Flight Attendant, etc.) should be of secondary concern. Many fatal airline disasters have been caused or averted by bad or good CRM.

Along these lines, it might have been more beneficial for an apparently unprepared, inadequately trained, and inadequately equipped EMS team to collaborate with a lucky on-site resource in Ms. Zinni instead of dismissing her so rudely.

I can't help but think of the old commercials - I'm not a pilot but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

The difference in the CRM example that you gave is that the crew easily knows who their crewmates are. Pretty easy to spot the pilot or a flight attendant given their uniform. If something goes wrong does it make sense for the crew to take the advice of a passenger who simply yells out "I am a pilot"? I would hope not.

The problem is that anyone can say anything about who they are or what they have been trained in. If there is no other help available then the person can put her training to use. But once the trained professionals show up and take over the scene the person has to take a step back and not interfere. It seems like it would be a huge liability if the experts take the advice of the unknown citizen without first having at least some verification that the person really does have qualifications that are useful. What would happen if the citizen says to do "X" and the expert does "X" and it ends up killing the person? That is not going to go well for the paramedics.

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Friday, August 20, 2021 12:28 PM

CED23.

A Nurse Practitioner can treat and diagnose patients and prescribe medicine. In fact, in 22 states, Nurse Practitioners can operate a medical practice without the supervision of a doctor.

I would say that a degree which allows its holder to practice and prescribe medicine constitutes a "Medical Degree."

It does not constitute a **doctorate** degree in medicine (MD, for example) and she made no such claims.

"Almost" is a subjective term, not an objective term. So that is open to interpretation and I understand yours. I would say that a person who can operate a family practice and do most everything a family doctor can do in 22 states is "Almost like a doctor" for the purpose and scope of this discussion, and my point was simply to illustrate her qualifications in comparison to the other responders there.

None of this mitigates the fact that she was the most qualified person on scene by a wide margin, based on the information available to us at this time (we know of EMS personnel, an RN, and NP Zinni on-scene).

We essentially said the same thing about the minimal training of an EMT.

GL2CP your point is very valid, no doubt.

However, it would have taken only a brief moment for Ms. Zinni to provide identification and bring her credentials up on her smartphone. A simple Google search for her name brings up plenty of information on her and her credentials, with photographs for identity confirmation.

In my opinion, it would have been much more prudent for CP EMS to take this brief moment to do this verification. Then, they could have listened to her input and recommendations. There could have been a collaborative effort where she was a consultant, and CP EMS could have done the hands-on to avoid liability. I submit that this would have been a much more prudent course of action.

They had a valuable resource on-scene that they failed to utilize, and they dismissed her in horribly rude fashion.

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Friday, August 20, 2021 12:36 PM

GL2CP said:

Could it be that cp does not want the extra liability and risk of some unknown person influencing the process.

That's exactly what it is. If Zinni messed up, gave bad advice, got in the way, etc., she is protected from liability by the Good Samaritan law.

Cedar Point's official EMTs, and Sandusky EMTS, are NOT protected, and thus are 100% liable for anything that happens - even if it happens because of something Zinni said or did.

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Friday, August 20, 2021 12:47 PM

^^ No offense, but this sounds like an insane take to me :

"In my opinion, it would have been much more prudent for CP EMS to take this brief moment to do this verification. Then, they could have listened to her input and recommendations. There could have been a collaborative effort where she was a consultant, and CP EMS could have done the hands-on to avoid liability. I submit that this would have been a much more prudent course of action.They had a valuable resource on-scene that they failed to utilize, and they dismissed her in horribly rude fashion."

Clearly there are some vastly differing opinions here, but my stance is pretty much summed up like this: They did the best they could with the circumstances they were given. The victim was quickly transported from a very difficult scene to navigate and apparently survived that part of the situation. If, and hopefully when, the victim makes a recovery, I think the answer is pretty clearly that they did a good job, because the victim survived. Other than that, we can't really speculate. Again, this is obviously not my area of expertise, just my opinion.

Last edited by F1rePhant0m, Friday, August 20, 2021 12:49 PM
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Friday, August 20, 2021 12:52 PM

-There have been CRM instances where non-crewed passengers with pilot credentials or aviation training credentials have been utilized in an emergency. Regardless, the point is to collaborate with all available resources to respond to an emergency.

-It would have been quick and easy to check Ms. Zinni's ID and view her credentials online.

"What would happen if the citizen says to do "X" and the expert does "X" and it ends up killing the person? That is not going to go well for the paramedics."

What happens if the victim ends up paralyzed because the EMS team didn't properly immobilize her neck and improperly lifted her onto the gurney, while simultaneously refusing the assistance of and ignoring the advice of a qualified professional who had offered to help provide proper neck support?

My point is, there is potential liability either way, especially given everything depicted in the bodycam video.

"But once the trained professionals show up and take over the scene the person has to take a step back and not interfere"

It **appears** that the "trained professionals" you referred to may well have had some deficiencies in their training, and even if they were perfectly trained as EMS professionals, they most likely didn't have anywhere near the amount of training as NP Zinni.

Plus, offering assistance as a medical professional with significantly greater qualifications than an EMT is not what I would call "interfering."

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Friday, August 20, 2021 12:53 PM
Jeff's avatar

DA20Pilot said:

First, I am not an expert by any means. I am simply a person in search of truth and understanding.

This is what people on the Internet say to imply expertise in... mostly having access to the Internet.


Jeff - Advocate of Great Great Tunnels™ - Co-Publisher - PointBuzz - CoasterBuzz - Blog - Music

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Friday, August 20, 2021 12:57 PM
HeyIsntThatRob?'s avatar

Any damage to any of the stationary brake fins on the return side of the track?

What if the magnets under the train picked up a metal object at some point and the object obstructed the brake fin path in between the magnets just enough to get deflected and ricochet off the train?

This all is a terrible freak accident on one of my favorite rides. But my main worry is the guest who was injured by it. I hope in the end she is okay and provided whatever care is necessary long term. I can’t help but imagine that this is something so random that could happen to anyone of us. Even more, the workers who might have been affected by this incident, too. Don’t forget them either.

Sucks.

Last edited by HeyIsntThatRob?, Friday, August 20, 2021 5:09 PM
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Friday, August 20, 2021 1:07 PM

A Nurse Practitioner can treat and diagnose patients and prescribe medicine. In fact, in 22 states, Nurse Practitioners can operate a medical practice without the supervision of a doctor.

They are allowed to do that where there are shortages of primary physicians outright and/or they are having trouble recruiting & keeping primary care MD's. NP's are largely restrained to primary care duties & in many places are restricted from prescribing certain medications w/o oversight from a MD.

I would say that a degree which allows its holder to practice and prescribe medicine constitutes a "Medical Degree."

Yes, you can say that & it's wrong. Medical Degree means a Doctorate.

I would say that a person who can operate a family practice and do most everything a family doctor can do in 22 states is "Almost like a doctor"

A family physician has the least specialized training, they are a jack of all trades & master of none. A NP is a jack of all trades, master of none, with less required training than a family physician.

Trying to muddle the lines of NP..."as almost a doctor" is not only incorrect factually, but dangerous in practice, as every MD has for more training. The entire basis of NP designation was to handle routine primary care, as the number of physicians wanting to go into primary care dwindles. Also , many routine things don't necessarily require a MD, they are basic. It also can be more cost effective, as NP's salaries are less.

Last edited by CED23, Friday, August 20, 2021 1:09 PM
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Friday, August 20, 2021 1:19 PM

Jeff,

In the post you quoted, I was relaying the opinions of a prominent doctor with 20+ years of experience with a major national hospital system, after she watched the EMS video, based upon what she could ascertain from the video.

I did not simply pull this off the internet somewhere.

I am simply relaying the opinion of a very highly qualified professional who is well known to me personally.

I asked her to watch the video and give me her opinion because I had no idea what to make of it. I was actually concerned about the victim, and I was curious as to whether anything about her prognosis could be inferred by the fact that she was screaming, conscious, and repeatedly able to verbalize the words "Help me!", and this conversation segued into what transpired on the video as well as Ms. Zinni's actions.

I'm the first to say I don't have expertise in this matter, and I did exactly that.

So I'm not sure exactly what your point is, nor why you felt compelled to make it. If you don't like thoughtful speculation, opinion, and analysis based upon gleaning whatever clues we can from the evidence available to us (whether it's this incident, or a mystery new attraction, or any other CP-related topic), then I'd say you are in the wrong business.

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