Dragster in 2006

That has got to be the post of the year!

MrScott

ForgottenEE

Well put. I agree with MrScott, it is the post of the year. But you did have some great points. You do have to give it to Intamin for having the balls to undertake sucha project.

But i stand by my point about Microsoft and the Xbox 360. Why rush to get something out when all kinks have yet to be worked out. Yes, 120mph, 420 feet, hydraulic launches, BUT it tends to have more downtime than not.

Bravo ForgottenEE, Bravo.:)

I didn't even address Microsoft's Xbox 360.

Maybe I should give my short version of my opinion on this subject...

An Xbox is a mass produced item. When Microsoft sells them, millions get sold. On the other hand, when Intamin sells a ride, they generally sell one. With very few exceptions, each ride is brought back to formula and build from there.

Xbox's are consumer items. The average person who buys one will want to plug it in and play without problems. When their Xbox fails, they get pissed off because they can't fix it. Conversely, a roller coaster is a special order ride. The average park wants a working ride, but problems are fully excpected.

The advantage that an such a gaming system has is that no one's life is in its hands. Okay, so maybe proper grounding and 120Vac needs to be done properly. But that is it. Safety for a ride is a completely different story. The ride is designed to shut itself off in case of numorus failures that could happen. Usually this leads to unnecessary downtime that is accepted for the sake of recognize a serious situation.

Making a prototype of an Xbox is trivial. A prototype for each change made to every new ride that comes out is not possible. The reason a prototype is extremely helpful is that it can detect most problems that will surface in production for the product as a whole. This can only be partially done for a ride. Basically each ride is a prototype even if there are only a few changes to ride ride. Top Thrill Dragster wasn't just a small change, it was a completely new ride in terms of work required.

Microsoft jumped the gun with their product launch and many claim that Intamin did too with Top Thrill Dragster. Microsoft really didn't have any pressure except self induced by announcing the product date and internal goals. Intamin was pressured the whole time by Cedar Point to get the ride completed sooner rather than later. The Xbox wasn't really held to any date, it could have changed with little recourse. When Intamin said they would get the ride done by May 2003, the ride had to be up and running on that date. Intamin ran into a number of problems but Cedar Point wouldn't allow their new ride to be delayed. As it turned out, the problems that Intamin was working so hard to fix took their attention away from the serious problems brewing in the hydraulic system and other parts of the launch system. In just over a week, the launch cables snapped, a tire fell off, and lastly a valve failed causing the onset of the downtime in June of 2003. Needless to say, Intamin was completely overwhelmed at that point. Not only did the entire launch system recieve significant damage, most of it wasn't obvious untill later. Heck, they didn't know that the gears recived damage untill they failed last fall.

Xbox 360 should be 99% operable when it's launched. Like anything else that has parts, some will fail. That is why they have a warrenty. Rides are done completely by contracts. A ride build with 90% reliability to start is pretty rare. The engineers have to take time and work problems out after the ride is put together. Some parts will fail so they get replaced. Top Thrill Dragster was a cascade of failures but Intamin hung in there and got it past the worst of the problems. Microsoft did revisions to their system and continued production. If the products they sell lasts only untill the warranty ends, too bad so sad. Intamin and Cedar Point agreed to terms when they signed the contract.

Technically Intamin worked out all of the problems they could practially solve before Xcelerator and was reiterated with that ride. They even tested the hydraulic system before shipping it off to Knott's. It worked great. I'm sure the guy that rode the wooden cart with a seat on it really enjoyed the ride. They were pretty well off while on their way to Top Thrill Dragster but everything changed. They ran into more problems than they could handle when they got there.

One last comparison. The entire electronics for an Xbox is about as much as each variable frequency drive for every set of drive tires. Each of these systems are not independent like Xboxes, they all have to work together regardless of situations or the ride will shut down as a result. All this does is move trains around in the station. The control system has to make things work and be custom designed for each ride. What they had planned out completely failed so they had to eventually find a middle ground. When they got to it, they found out that running 5 trains is better anyways.

So much for being short...

Forgotten

I fully understand ALL (ha ha) of your points. And i understand that the complexity of the XBOX is nothing at all compared to that of TTD. I was just saying that all CP, Intamin, and Microsoft were in a hurry to get this project completed that some things may have been overlooked.

But really, who are all of us, we as consumers have absolutely no control over the technical issues that WILL arise with either. But it's a good subject to debate or discuss.

You don't buy a ticket to ride TTD, you buy a ticket to CP.

It's obvious that a person on here does some research. Best post I've read in a long time, maybe ever.

I agree...it's posts like his that make reading here fun.:)

*singing* She's got a ticket to ride, she's got a ticket to........ sorry I must have drifted off.

I kid, I kid. Forgotten EE put it very well. I commend you on your knowledge of Intamin and Titanic. There will never be a day where everyone shares the same views on Intamin and/or TTD, so it's nice to see some more defensive views than constant insults.

In the wise, wise words of Graham Chapman:

"Run Away!!!" ;)

In all seriousness, very well said ForgottenEE.

ForgottenEE

Best arguement about Intamin and TTD I've ever heard. Sadly, in the three trips I've made to CP since TTD's installation, the ride has always been down. Maybe this year.

It seems to be luck of the draw. On my first trip to the park in early August of 2003 we skipped it all together because the lines were pushing 2-3 hours. My next trip the following May we skipped it because there was lack of interest. That October we went to TTD right away and I had my first ride. I enjoyed it very much. Then May of last year I went and skipped it again because a few of the people in my group were afraid. Then in August again it was open when I went so I brought my sister on for her first ride (first coaster at the park for that matter) and we rode front seat. The next day it closed for heavy rain in the afternoon, we managed to sneak in a ride that morning on the 11th train. Then I went with my cousin on Labour Day weekend and it was closed for it's extended downtime, same with my trip in October.

It all depends on your luck. And plus, if it isn't open there are lots of other great rides and coasters in the park that you can enjoy. There will be another time to ride TTD.

I have ridden TTD multiple times. Some times with little or no waits. But it's the time (s) that you are there with guests of yours that it goes down, (after waiting in line for over an hour or 2), that really ticks you off.

I applaud ForgottenEE on his post. It's right on the mark. But it still doesn't change the fact that this ride disappoints many guests because of downtime. Heck, I was so mad one time I was at the park because of this that I left and went back to the Cabin to watch TV (Where I wasn't spending money).

Add to this the seatbelt problems with MF, and I think you can see why attendance is not what has been expected by the suits.

I don't wear a suit. The answers seem simple to me. Just what the heck am I missing? Or, more importantly, why are the suits missing just what is happening? Geez, I may need a job soon and I could fix this whole mess at CP in a season or two.

MrScott

MrScott said:
But it still doesn't change the fact that this ride disappoints many guests because of downtime.

That is exactly why this ride was considered by Dick Kinzel to be his worst decision.

As for the rest of your post, they are actually set by Intamin. Outside of petitioning Intamin, there is little Cedar Point can legally do to fix the problem.

In reality, it's a problem that neither Cedar Point nor Intamin really wants to skrew up. Intamin knows that it will take just one death with the blame placed squarely on them and their roller coaster division is toast. Similarly, a death on one of Cedar Point's rides may result in management overseeing the rides division being held criminally liable. This neglects the fact that lawsuits are likely to flair after such a situation.

Even though many whom are restricted can ride safely, they would perfer to do that then put one life at risk. It is morally and legally justifiable despite the monetary losses from the situation.

I would put knocking down the ride out of the question. Sure it is a disapointment when it is closed, but when the ride is up and running, the line is at least a half hour even on a slower day.

In history rides aren't taken out when they still pull in some of the biggest crowds in the park. Even though the downtime is more that other rides, the ride is running more than it doesn't.

The line is only that long because the capacity sucks and you uaually never wait through an entire trip through the line without at least some downtime.

For everyone saying Dragster ran SO MUCH better last year, the thing still failed to give 1 million rides. It gave 943,000 and some change in 2004 and gave somewhere less than 994,029 last year (seing as Corkscrew was the 10th most popular ride and that is the number of rides it gave). Perhaps they were just under this number and would have topped 1 million if the dumb thing actually ran for the weekends.

When Corkscrew (seatbelts and all) gives more ride than Dragster, don't try to tell me the ride is reliable.

The numbers for all of the top 10 rides were actually pretty pathetic last year, historically speaking. I guess I wasn't imagining things when I said that efficiency was sufferning big time last year. Now sure, attendence was down a bit, but if you take out Sky Ride's increase (no doubt 95% weather related), the average of these numbers is a lot worse.

2004 2005 Difference
Magnum 2,080,903 1,888,539 -9.24%
Raptor 2,089,853 1,838,824 -12.01%
Sky Ride 1,605,543 1,809,259 12.69%
Gemini 1,729,787 1,717,112 -0.73%
Iron Dragon 1,685,520 1,639,672 -2.72%
CPLERR 1,589,150 1,487,965 -6.37%
Mill. Force 1,525,402 1,414,521 -7.27%
Mantis 1,150,304 1,139,186 -0.97%
Dis. Transport 1,033,261 1,118,647 8.26%
Corkscrew 1,281,067 994,029 -22.41%

Total 15,770,790 15,047,754 -4.58%

Being closed for two months does knock down the annual total. When TTD is running it has a capacity higher than MF with its seatbelt problems. I waited an entire hour in June with no breakdown or rollback.

So what you're saying MDOmnis is that everyone is leaving the more popular rides to go on Sky Ride and Disaster Transport? ;)

How do you define popular? Is it by the amount of press they've gotten? By how new they are? Or by the number of rides they've given.

A better representation of this though would be to divide the number of riders by the number of days operated. Then you'd be able to see how many riders per day each ride was able to kick out.

Remember, statistics can be made to represent whatever you want. So I'm sure with the right data manipulation, I could make it look like Dragster was right up at the top.

And some very good points from Forgotten up above.

If you're referring to my post I was just making fun at the fact that the only numbers that were up were Disaster Transport and Sky Ride.

Those are both probably up because of weather (although it is funny that of all the great rides, those see an increase). The warmer it is, the more people ride DT, the nicer it is, the more SR is open. And if I remember right, 2004 was a pretty crappy year weather wise for the point. Of course the overall is down, which is never good.