Dick Kinzel "coaster war" interview

Chuck Wagon said:
How about this for a prediction:

Soak City is due for an upgrade. So are the kiddie areas, especially if they jump onto the licensing deals Paramount had. How about no new coaster until 2011 or 2012?

I'd actually really like this one to come true. Soak City and the kiddie areas really need an upgrade.

^^ Promotional what? CP didn't coin the term (as far as I know), and they certainly wouldn't proclaim the start of any type of "war".

You missed the point entirely - I'm pointing out that CP needs another big coaster as much as they need a bottle opener museum.

Chuck Wagon said:
Interesting term, "coaster war" A war with whom? CP owns all the major parks in Ohio. I doubt Six Flags even gets mentioned at planning meetings.

Cedar Point has a market far larger than just Ohio. If they weren't interested in the competition, they wouldn't be visiting Great Adventure and looking at new rides they've installed recently. They also wouldn't be inventing coaster names like terracoaster.

Six Flags is still a larger company, so I'm sure they talk about them all the time.

^ yes, but Cedar Point competes with Six Flags as much as they do against the Tigers, Cavaliers and Star Southfield. Its the entertainment dollar.

That's right. Cedar Point does compete with Six Flags parks. See, Worlds of Adventure is right down the . . . um, Wyandot Lake is pretty close to . . . er, Darien Lake is really not that far from . . . um . . . Six Flags Kentucky Kingdom. Yeah, that's right. Cedar Point competes with SFKK. Oh, and Great Adventure. They're only, what, six hours away?

C'mon, Jugga. Didn't you get that brain transplant I sent you? ;)

Mike, you're not honestly saying people don't fly in from all over the world to go to Cedar Point are you?

Coastern3rd said:
Most of the people I talk to are not afraid of the height but the launch on Dragster.

I would say the exact opposite - my wife is an example. I know lots of people that won't even ride Power Tower because of the height. No way is a 500 footer ever practical. What kind of elements could you have? Because of the speeds involved it would just have to be a bigger Millennium Force with big hills and sweeping turns. Not to mention the enormous amount of real estate such a coaster would take up. I guess they could put in a brake run to slow it down, but what's the point?

^^ And just what percentage of attendance would you suggest comes from beyond a 200 mile radius? I'll eat my hat if it's more than 15%. As much as Cedar Point is a regional or national destination, it will always draw first and foremost from Ohio and southern Michigan, with a little bit of Indiana, PA, and Ontario thrown into the mix.

Hersheypark has a reputation as a national destination, but when I was there two summers ago, the parking lot looked like this: PA PA PA PA NJ PA PA PA NY PA PA MD PA PA PA PA NJ PA PA DE PA PA PA PA VA.

By the way, this is a safe bet. I don't currently have a hat. *** Edited 6/29/2007 6:26:11 PM UTC by Ensign Smith***

Well, I think CP is going to take a break and focus on families and mothers. No one disagrees that TTD has not lived up to expectations. However, on the Motley Fool interview, Mr. Kinzel did say Magnum and MF were his two best decisions. I think height will always play a roll in the "Roller Coaster Capital" of the world and at some point in the future (more than 5 years) they will break 500 feet. It's not the height that's the issue with TTD imo, but the design, operation, and maintance. Yes, the height will deter many older park goers from riding the ride, but the publicity such an attraction garners, especially if it works consistently and cost effectively, makes the ROI attractive.

What first struck me with Maverick preview video was the launch up the first hill. It surprises me that more has not been made of it, since it is the first and only type of launch up a lift hill.

It would also be a perfect way to get a train over the 500 foot mark. CP has always been the first to break height mile-stones, and can't believe at some point in the distant future, they don't have their eyes on 500+ feet. Given the height of TTD (420 ft) and their past logic going back to Magnum, I think when they do break it, they'll do it at 600 ft. Hopefully I'll still be around to see first hand if my prediction is correct - lol.

I would say the exact opposite - my wife is an example. I know lots of people that won't even ride Power Tower because of the height. No way is a 500 footer ever practical. What kind of elements could you have? Because of the speeds involved it would just have to be a bigger Millennium Force with big hills and sweeping turns. Not to mention the enormous amount of real estate such a coaster would take up. I guess they could put in a brake run to slow it down, but what's the point?

MF is basically a bigger Magnum, Steel Dragon is a bigger MF etc etc... I just don't think a bigger and faster MF is going to turn anyone away. There is no official answer to the question however, so I guess all we can do is wait and see if anyone builds one and what the outcome would be.

I hope cedar point is going to build 500 feet because six flags in new jersey take our record of tallest and fastest roller coaster called kingda ka. dick Kinzel plans going to charge withed 2 years. I know about dragster probelms before its buit. what year is Dick Kinzel is leaveing from cedar fair? I thinking about Cedar point is going to buit 500 feet by 2 more years.

It won't be that soon. I think they built Dragster too soon after MF. Part of the draw to MF is that 300 wasn't even on people's minds when it was built (just like 200 wasn't when Magnum was built). And even though 400 wasn't on people's minds when TTD was built, it was more of a "you just broke 300 a couple years ago".

I'd rather see someone break 400 with a traditional coaster before anyone goes after 500.

Ensign Smith said:
And just what percentage of attendance would you suggest comes from beyond a 200 mile radius? I'll eat my hat if it's more than 15%. As much as Cedar Point is a regional or national destination, it will always draw first and foremost from Ohio and southern Michigan, with a little bit of Indiana, PA, and Ontario thrown into the mix.

That's sorta my point though. They obviously know how to market to their local demographics and know a lot about them. Kinzel has even said many times they're losing (or already lost) the Detroit market because of factors outside their control (economy, unemployment, etc...).

So, let's say you're on the money with your 15% for people outside of 200 miles. If Cedar Point is trying to boost attendance, don't you think they'd start focusing on markets that they could increase? I would argue they realize this or they wouldn't be heavily investing in "resort" additions like hotels and indoor water parks. They are obviously trying to make Cedar Point more of a destination so people in that outside 200-mile radius have a reason to go there and spend multiple days.

I would also argue Cedar Point is the most recognizable amusement park outside of Disney. People may know the name Hershey from the Chocolate, but they might not know they have a theme park, much less know anything about it. People know the Six Flags name, but not necessarily specific parks. But, if you mention Cedar Point to people, they're most likely going to have heard about it and know something about it.

As such, I highly doubt Cedar Point ignores ANY competitor, no matter how big, small, close or far. Hopefully they start focusing on that outside 200-mile radius too because I believe that's where they're going to see an attendance increase if they can get one.

Tom, Hulk at IOA launches you up a lift hill via tires run by computers. Not the same type of launch...but a similar effect.

Down here in Florida relatively few people I talk to have heard of Cedar Point unless they are A. from the midwest or B. huge coaster fans.

Six Flags has name recognition but Cedar Fair doesn't. That is something I expect them to work on in the coming years.

That response was well thought out, Tim. (Per usual.) From that perspective, they are indeed competing against the Six Flags and Universal Studios (Studii?) and Sea Worlds.

If you haven't already, you should take a little poll down there in the islands, and find out what percentage of people have ever heard of Cedar Point vs Six Flags or Hersheypark -- although that might be too extreme a removal from American culture and recreation to make for a worthwhile poll. Of course, you've probably already ruined the experiment by shouting far and wide about CP. ;)

"Building more big rides that few people will ride is not helpful. Attendance they year Dragster opened did not exceed the year Millennium Force opened. In fact, no year since has."

Jeff correct me i'm wrong, but maybe the huge amounts of downtime was the reason why Dragster's ridership hasn't exceeded 1 million yet? I'm pretty sure there is always tons of people in that line, not matter who won't ride it. Sure it was a horrible investment but as it has been said in past threads, it's basically what you get asked about and associate Cedar Point with. Also, the ridership has gone up every single year because its getting better. Give Dragster as little downtime as Millennium and i think you'd take back that quote about attendance. *** Edited 6/30/2007 12:32:22 AM UTC by TTDCP***

^^ Well, I talk about Cedar Point ALL the time, and that's why I'm always amazed when random people are like, "Oh, I've seen that park on TV before. They have awesome coasters! I've been thinking about going there." That's usually all they know, but they have heard of the park which was my point. These aren't even "coaster people".

I always have something CP as my desktop background too, and people comment on the park all the time when they come into my office. Since I am in the Caribbean right now, people from all over the world talk to me about it. Just to name a few, people from Ireland, England, Bahamas, Washington state, Mexico, Jamaica, Florida, New York and Texas have all recognized the name Cedar Point and where it's located. They usually know about Top Thrill Dragster too because there's some PowerPoint presentation going around the internet now with pictures of the ride.

Expanding on my thoughts earlier though, I actually think Cedar Fair is hindering their own efforts at increasing attendance at Cedar Point. For instance, if they want to try and bring in people from outside their core market, they should be advertising outside their core market. However, some of these markets are already being advertised with other Cedar Fair parks. When I lived in New York City, I saw commercials for Dorney Park all the time. Since it costs next to nothing to fly from NYC to Akron (or even Cleveland), I'm not sure whey they're not advertising there for Cedar Point. Granted, there are a lot of other parks in the tri-state area, but there's also a TON of people with lots of income. I took people from the city all the time to Cedar Point and they loved it. They go back without me now. If the core markets for the Point are experiencing downtime because of the economy, advertise in markets that have booming economies. Those markets are more likely to have people who like to travel and who have disposable income.

That's why I feel installing similar rides, using the same ride names, and generic commercials is hurting them if they actually wanted to bring in more out of towners. I have to do a lot of convincing to people that know about Cedar Point, but are leary about traveling all the way there. They usually say, "There's a Six Flags (or some other park) right down the road. Why would I fly to Ohio?" After I convince them why they should make the trek, they all report back they had an amazing time. Had I not been there to convince them though, they would've just stuck with their local park. That's the deficit I think Cedar Point should try to fill with their own advertising. The park speaks for itself once people are there. Cedar Point just needs to do a better job getting the people there.

"Its not funny, Its all about money"

as much as I would also like to see 500 footer. He clearly stated that the company no longer gets good return on breaking records. Promoting the old "we have the tallest coaster in the world" does not make 25million dollars. And I think it is because most of the population is getting older now and they won't take a shuttle ride on a gigaterramegacoaster.

IMO. Peace, Mikey

Chief, GREAT point, Hulk totally slipped my mind. You're right, it's different but similar (my bad). Maverick's lift is still one of a kind like Hulk to be sure.

Tom, I completely disagree with your statement. You want to talk ROI? Look what happened when CP very hastily decided to go for height and speed. Yeah, they're still working on that idea to get the ROI to where it should be for a ride of its caliber, and you know what? It will never meet their expectations.

CP will not build a 500 footer anytime in the next 5, 6, or 10 years, what attraction is there in the ROI of a ride where your marketing is the same old same old "we have the tallest..blah blah blah" no one gives a crap anymore. People want thrills, they want inversions, they want intensity. Tell me, what sort of 500 footer can offer those elements within a reasonable amount of real estate, and offer such an attractive ROI that CP would be willing to build it within the next five years?

None.

Which is why you, and all of the other hopefuls here will not see a coaster using height to its advantage at Cedar Point, in the extreme numbers of 500-600 feet.

And honestly, have you ridden Maverick? I gurantee you that CPs return on investment will skyrocket with Maverick, and will continue to flatline on Dragster like it has since day one, sure they've brought more people in with having a 420 ft coaster, but how long did that last before people were distracted again?

Bottom line, Kinzel, while leading a somewhat misdirected board, has actually been enlightened on the coaster wars, and realizes that the direction Cedar Point needs to take is not a focus on being the biggest and baddest. Need I really mention the several other departments in which CP is nearing complete failure?

Don't get me wrong, CP is a great park for what it is, but it could be so much better if they just recognized potential when it slaps them in the face.