CP Christmas lights

Eight years later, I'm still convinced it's a population problem, not a weather problem. But the indoor waterpark business in Sandusky didn't take off like a lot of people, including myself, thought it would.

I like the idea of making the Lake Erie Railroad into the Polar Express.

Also the cars at the front of the park (I get so confused in which cars are which) would make a nice drive through a winter wonderland or something,

I don't know if the cars work good in the cold but a nice drive through a winter wonderland in them would be nice. Along with the train becoming the polar express and ice skating and things here and there, I think I would make the 1:15 min drive there.

Having been there just this past horrible winter, the interior of the park where the wind is blocked is not bad at all. Get anywhere near a prevailing north or westerly wind and it will chill you to the bone in no time.

I think this would be a wonderful idea IF they put enough effort and thought behind it.

The biggest problem I see with this is
1: finding enough staffing. They have a hard enough time during Holloweekends. One way they could help this problem is to plan it during winter break when some college kids could use some extra bar money. ;)

2: the park at this time of year is a mess between the 8' snow piles and all the winter refurb going on. Given the past couple of opening days being a down to the last minute deal, I dont think they need to spend time on other things until they get things under control for opening day.

From a personal standpoint, I would love to see a Christmas event at CP. We would definitely do a weekend trip and stay at Castaway or Kalahari for it. From a business standpoint, I would agree the population base would be a question that I don't know the answer for. That's what marketing research firms are for.

Thats interesting about the water park business not living up to expectations. My wife and I always do a weekend trip to Castaway Bay in February. This past year, Friday night was pretty quiet but occupancy seemed high on Saturday. We drove out to Kalahari to check it out and it was packed on Saturday. Of course, that's just one day out of the week.

They could do some sort of deal with castaway bay guests where they get a discount or something on tickets for the CP lights.

It still comes down to the question if there is enough of a draw between a Christmas in the Park event and the water parks to get people to come to Sandusky in December. The bottom line is that it has to work for CP financially for them to do it.

Folks, we are talking about Cedar Fair here. If they really thought they could make a buck off it they would give it another go. By and large the staff didn't care for the event because 3/4 or their year they work an insane schedule and they really do deserve a break in the winter. The "crowds" didn't turn out as they hoped. And, as has been said several times, the Peninsula can be miserable in the winter.

DSShives said:
We drove out to Kalahari to check it out and it was packed on Saturday.

I was talking more about the number of indoor waterparks. I expected at least six at this point. Instead, one (Maui Sands) failed in epic fashion by abruptly closing over Thanksgiving weekend, 2008. Two others were in the works, but have since been delayed and/or abandoned.

But, yes, from what I've heard and seen, Kalahari is really killing it.

Walt, do you think the moratorium on water park building in Sandusky is reflective of the reception of water parks or the continuing recession? We don't see a lot of building in South Florida right now and I know there are a number of projects (several water parks for instance) that are in the pipeline.

It's hard to tell. On one hand, the effect of the current recession has been wide-reaching. But these kinds of regional travel spots supposedly fare better. Plus the parks that are open don't seem to be having any trouble. Kalahari continues to build and grow.

Yeah...I don't fully understand the economics and financing end of things. I suspect Kalahari can expand because of a proven track record, positive cash flow, historical data that makes financing a less risky proposition. Putting something into the ground from scratch requires a leap of faith that not too many folks are taking right now.

I suspect Kalahari might be the reason the other projects were abandoned. With the business they do, I can't imagine anyone having a real good shot at competing with them.

You would think...but then there is the Wisconsin Dells that seems to have room for lots of players in the business.

And, Disney didn't stop Sea World, Universal and now Legoland from closing in on their territory.

I think there are many reasons why there hasn't been further expansion of indoor water parks in Sandusky. The economy is one of them. There are parts of the country that are doing fine. But Cleveland and Detroit (two major draws for the Sandusky area) are struggling.

Financing is difficult at this point. Banks are making loans but often they are to companies that are doing well. Someone with a proven track record could probably get a loan for a water park in Sandusky (or an expansion of an existing one). But a start up with no track record would be a tough sell for lenders right now. Likely such a loan would require a large amount of equity which is typically difficult for a lot of start ups.

Competition is another issue. Kalahari is the big 800 pound gorilla in the area which I think serves to discourage other entrants. A couple of years back (sometime in the 2007/08 time frame), I remember reading an article about the waterpark market in Sandusky. Someone from Cedar Fair (I suspect it was Kinzel but I am not sure) was quoted as saying that CF was happy with its position in that market but had no plans to expand because they viewed the market at too competitive/saturated. If the area cash cow says "no mas," how tough will it be for other not-as-well-funded folks to come into that market? It may be the case the Cedar Fair can get better returns on investment inside Cedar Point than they can with an expansion of its indoor waterpark but seems to me that if they thought they could make more money there (with Cedar Point attendance not really growing), that they would do so.

And I think Orlando is a totally different animal. Disney made it a world wide resort destination. Creating a lot of opportunities for others to enter the market. Sea World and Legoland are draws that offer at least some things that Disney doesn't. And Universal did originally (though I seem to recall that Disney added Hollywood Studios at about the same time Universal came to Florida. Now it seems to be the place with rides that families go to when they have outgrown Disney (or at least as a day or two visit place in connection with a Disney trip) and its own draw with Potter.

That isn't as true with indoor waterparks. There are not as many ways to separate yourself from the competition.

In the end, I think that if someone thought they could make money with another indoor waterpark, they would find a way to get financing/funding and get the deal done. And that may happen when the economy improves.

Well Castaway Bay pretty much operates in minimum occupancy for most of week in the winter season and is even closed for about 2/3 of it.

Great Wolf is for younger children, Kalahari is for teens and adults and Castaway Bay is in the strange market of "Yeah we're owned by Cedar Point, stay here!"

I just wish Castaway had the experience of Kalahari. Castaway seems like a quick knee jerk reaction to the new Kalahari and Great Wolf at the time. It just doesn't have the nice resort like atmosphere of the other two.

Having made my first visit to Kalahari this summer, I can attest that the atmosphere and quality of service are amazing. I don't even particularly care for waterparks and I want to go back.

Yeah, we loved it as well. I want to go back, but I've not seen room rates to my liking in quite some time (interesting to me that October 2011 rates are higher than June 2010 rates).

But hey, that means they're likely doing some good business, so good for them!

I thought Kalahari was nothing like what they said it would be but i really dont like water parks

I really like the Christmas lights idea. Though it would have to be pretty impressive in order for me to want to drive an hour up to the park to see them. :p