Changing seat style?

But I really believe that more depth in the seat would allow "bigger" people to ride. The change in depth would allow more slack for people because you would be back more and the seatbelts wouldn't be so close. But this theory doesn't make the ride unsafe for skinnier people. It actually makes it more safe but you would still have that freedom feeling that you get while in the seats.

BTW, how many of you can fit into a B&M speed coaster seat?(Nitro, Raging Bull, Apollo)

I agree, yet, I like others enjoy the aspect of the seats on MF now. They are comfortable and add a different dimension to the ride. So, thats my opinion!

Everything Rideman said sounds right to me.

Edit: While typing my post I thought about the new Intamin coaster with the same trains as MF but the seats of TTD. Thunder Dolphin has them, here. As you can see the train looks quite similar. *** Edited 7/22/2004 2:04:03 AM UTC by Gomez***

Wow. Guess that clears that up. I can't even tell the difference. I had a feeling that difference in view was not because of the part of the seat we were talking about changing. Now, who would want to call a ride Thunder Dolphin?

The Japanese are big on Thunder and Dolphins apparently... But the ride looks pretty badass! Has anyone fallen out of it yet?

I have no idea what Intamin should or shouldn't do with regards to what Cedar Point wants or needs because I have no idea what the contract between the two looks like.

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Gomez said:
Everything Rideman said sounds right to me.

Edit: While typing my post I thought about the new Intamin coaster with the same trains as MF but the seats of TTD. Thunder Dolphin has them, here. As you can see the train looks quite similar. *** Edited 7/22/2004 2:04:03 AM UTC by Gomez***

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Goliath at SFH and from what I can tell from the picture, Expedition Ge Force also have the newer bent lap bars.

Interesting that EGF just opened just a year after MF and still before The Perilous Plunge Death with those newer lap bars, so maybe they new something was wrong with them before crap started to happen.

The seats are fine on Millenium Force. Just so everybody can ride is not a reason. An would they listen to any old person about the seats? NO! You would have to get some major support to get them to change the seats which you probably dont have.

The seats on Millennium Force are NOT fine.

In combination with the design of the train, they are OK.

In combination with the older train design, they may have been responsible for the ejection of two riders.

If I ever get some free moments, I'll try to illustrate what I am talking about. It all comes down to the fundamentals of how lap bars work, and making sure that it is possible for lap bars to work properly. Hint: Tighter is not always better. The answer is geometry, not friction.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Aren't you due for a new article Dave? The one about how TTD works has been up forever, maybe this could be the topic of your next article.

I don't know why everyone sees MF seat designs as fine. TTD is the next evolution of the design, a better version. Would you keep running Windows 95 after Windows XP came out? If possible I'd like to see them upgrade the trains on MF, if not for the sake of some larger guests than for the fact that the TTD style is a better design, not only meant to be more accomodating, but also safer than just an inch of slack.

As Jeff stated, this may not be possible due to the contract between the two companies. At least not for free, anything can be done for a price, but whether CP would pay that price remains to be seen.

IF 2 riders were ejected then there would have been a closer and on the news. So far i have seen none of that. They would have also changed the seat style. I forgot though, more people want to ride so lets just change it. Like they would listen to some ordinary person. Yeah they will uh huh.

Um...2 people were killed, one at SFNE in late April of this year. It was in the news. And the ride was closed for some time. I don't follow much on SF so I don't know how long it was down, but that is what caused the change in seat belt policy on MF.

I don't remember the other incident very clearly, but I do remember talk of it back when this incident happened.

All companies listen to their customers (just look at Slim-Fast and the Aladdin Hotel). The question is can enough speak up at once to be heard by the execs. There have been enough complaints from the GP and enthusiasts alike that I wouldn't be suprised if CP and Intamin come up with a better solution in the off-season.

The answer to why CP hasn't changed the seat style yet is obvious. CP doesn't want to close one of their two star attraction for a change that isn't needed all that much. Even more they are having many problems still with their star attraction, Top Thrill Dragster. Like some people said the change (if there will be one) will be this offseason.

cpfan101, obviously I didn't make myself clear.

The seats on Millennium Force are essentially the same as the seats on the Supermen: Rides of Steel at Darien Lake, Riverside, and Adventure World ( :) ). In Superman's first month of operation at Darien Lake, a rider got tossed out. Yes, he was an oversize rider. Yes, the ride was not equipped with seat belts. And there are some other possible factors involved. But the point remains, the rider was ejected. Six Flags added seat belts to the train and called it good.

The following year, Cedar Point opened Millennium Force. One of the interesting features of Millennium Force is that the train design is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike the Superman train. The seat configuration is different, the floor pan is very different, the lap bar arrangement is slightly different, and the ride opened with seat belts. Oddly enough, the other two Supermen opened with the "old" train design.

Three years later, a rider gets himself ejected from one of the Superman trains, this time at Riverside. Meanwhile, the train design has gone through at least three other variations, with Top Thrill Dragster equipped with the most recent revision of the train design.

I think the Intamin hyper-coaster train has gone through more revisions since 1999 than the Arrow Runaway Train had from 1959-1999.

John, I am overdue for an article. I'm also open to suggestions...I'm thinking the lap bar thing might not be the best for a Cedar Point-specific feature, though. I'm thinking I might do a lap bar article for my own site, and something else for PointBuzz.......

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

This might be a dumb question in the Friction dept or whatever topic you want to call it? In changing the seats like how you guys are saying, wouldn't they have to reconfigure the whole trains too. If thats the case who knows maybe they'll add totally new trains. Another question, would that affect the rides current speed?

The kind of change to the seats that we're talking about are extremely subtle. I don't think any significant modification to the train would be required. Let me put it this way...

From the seat back to the front edge of the Top Thrill Dragster seat is about fourteen inches.

From the seat back to the front edge of the Millennium Force seat is about fourteen inches.

(yeah, I know, it surprised me, too!)

The difference is in the contour of the forward edge of the seat. The Dragster seat extends straight forward and then has a very sudden roll-over at the forward edge. The Millennium Force seat has a much longer roll-over which starts only 12" back from the seat back. The issue is that the human body can only bend in certain places. If there is only 12" between the seat back and the edge of the seat, then the front edge of the seat is really not supporting the back of the thigh. If your legs are short enough, you can actually drop your leg over the front edge of the seat. If you do that, your lap literally disappears, and the lap bar cannot hold you in the seat, no matter how tight it is.

The extra two inches is enough to support the thigh, holding the leg parallel to the seat, and more important, making sure it can't slide out from under the lap bar. For someone of my size, it really doesn't matter because my lower leg is long enough, I can't slide my feet back, and I can't get my feet over the toe bar, so my knees are held up, and it doesn't matter where the edge of the seat is...if the lap bar is anywhere past my knees, I'm not coming out from under it. That's true for me, with my 30" inseam. But the ride accommodates riders a lot shorter than me.

It's also useful if the seat is angled upward from the seat back to the front edge, for similar reasons. On Magnum, the seat is 16" deep, and angled upward.

There you have it. Of course, it isn't peer-reviewed or anything... :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Great explanation Rideman. I think that you put the nail in the coffin.

Regardless of seat differences, I found it about the same difficulty to fasten the belts and get 1" of black belt slack on both MF and TTD this past Sunday. I'm 6'2" and was 255lbs and wearing 42" shorts that day. I didn't have any real trouble getting the slack (once the lady at the test seat for MF showed me how to get it by pulling on the belt across the hips while simulataneously tugging on the strap end), so I'd think I'd notice belt differences smaller riders wouldn't. I noticed the seats looked slightly difference at a glance compared to MF, but the fastening the belt felt exctly the same to me and had the same odd Euro-release on it (totally unlike anyone else's belts at the park and very confusing to most guests experiencing them for the first time. I still got confused on my first MF ride since last year. They are NOT intuitive just looking at them, IMO). I would say the lap bar was maybe slightly more comfortable on TTD and the seat's head rest actually served a real functional purpose for a change.

BTW, TTD was a lot of fun, but doesn't compare to the launch on King Dominion's Hypersonic, IMO (which I rode in 2001), which feels much more powerful, IMO despite not achieving as high a top-speed (I almost coulndn't breathe for 2 seconds on Hypersonic as it lurched so hard forward, but had no troubles on TTD, which just felt very smooth/fast, sort of like Wicked Twister x3 or something). Gaging by the time to speed ratios for each, I guess that could be expected.

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JuggaLotus said:
Um...2 people were killed, one at SFNE in late April of this year. It was in the news. And the ride was closed for some time. I don't follow much on SF so I don't know how long it was down, but that is what caused the change in seat belt policy on MF.

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Heck, we've even felt the ripple up here in MN. At Valleyfair, ride-ops are not only checking lapbars, but have been physically checking each and every seatbelt on the trains before they are dispatched. I asked my friend the ride sup. if it was because of SMRoS, he said yeah.