CF and SF passes to increase attendance

Just saying it doesn't make it true, and you can say it all you want but there are instances where the per cap is a misleading indicator, especially when looking at the bottom line. Attendance, per cap, and overhead percentages all have to be looked at to rate the success of any park. Plainly put, if you have poor attendance and a bad management staff it really won't matter what the per cap is, just like WOA. Which gained nothing by giving away the gate because they couldn't even give that product away!

Nothing warm and fuzzy about it. This park NEEDS to get people back to the park. Worrying about hurting the per cap now is silly compared to the other big issues facing this place.

You're right. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I don't know why USA Today quotes me on such things.

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Jeff - Webmaster - GTTP - My Blog
Blogs, photo albums - CampusFish
What time does the water show start?

Well, all I know is that when attendance is down but the Per Cap is up...it doesn't seem to hurt the value of my CF Units.

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"You can dream, create, design and build the most wonderful place in the world...but it requires people to make the dreams a reality."

Okay but what I'm saying is why not have certain DAYS when you could use your CF pass to get into Geuaga Lake? Doesn't have to be a monthly, or even weekly thing. But, it would be a way to get people into the park when it would normally be a lot slower. Which is better? Having 10 people spend $50 ($500 total), including admission, or having 100 people spend $15 ($1500) after letting them into the park ON A LIMITED BASIS for free? Plus, maybe those people would come back another day when its not free, and spend more. Not to mention the word of mouth of any improvements you've made to the operations of the park.

Personally, I don't care either way. I have a SFDL pass. I have a CP pass. If it were up to me, we'd include GL in our trip to Ohio this year, but we are working with a bit of a budget.

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But then again, what do I know?

Any attendance program that requires a guest to do something on a certain day is doomed to failure. People will want to use the pass on other days and try to guilt the gate staff in to letting them in.

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-Evan
Admissions GLP 04

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that's over 250,000 people that didn't shell out something between $30 and $40, depending on discounts. ... Per cap spending is one of the most important metrics there is.

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Jeff, the really sad news is that they "gave the gate away" and still only had around 1.5M attendees...

Let's put the gate receipts in perspective. A "ton" of the paying folks (majority?) were season pass holders (wasn't it $160 for 4 passes?) who probably averaged 4-5 trips... they "effectively" paid $8-$10 to enter. Most of the folks who came in for free wouldn't have come if it wasn't free. Don't forget all those heavily-discounted corporate outings, inexpensive junior tickets, etc... I might guess the typical person entering paid less than $15.

I think you could make a pretty good "business case" for giving entry to all CF passholders. The typical person probably drops $20-$25 in the park (food, etc.), This is very profitable stuff (I bet there's a nice mark-up on those $3 sodas...). Let the 4 CP passholders in for nothing -- they'll probably spend more than the one person willing to pay the $35 admission ($80-$100 vs. $55-$60).

Time will tell on this acquisition, but let me be the first entry in the "closing" pool -- my guess for the last day of GL operation is Oct 25, 2009. That's several years to "give it the ol' college try" then a couple more for getting buy-in for the zoning changes and lining up buyers/developers for that prime lakefront property.

If you're looking for the best business case, that might just be it. Eliminate the major competitor (millions in advertising savings over the next decade), get some nice assets for their other parks (millions in capital savings over the next decade), and then sell the property for more than you paid for everything.

OK, I'm done beating the horse. LOL.

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Hey, I heard a rumor that Millennium Force is sinking...

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Let the 4 CP passholders in for nothing -- they'll probably spend more than the one person willing to pay the $35 admission ($80-$100 vs. $55-$60).

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It's not revenue. It's profit. It costs more to run the park if more people are in it. Sure, there are fixed costs to running a park, and they are high. But, there are also costs that scale with attendance.

A hotel operator on another board had an eloquent description of this with respect to priceline rooms. Priceline guarantees only double occupancy. So, the hotels budget costs for two occupants, and makes inventory available appropriately. If someone shows up with four, it throws off the cost curve---more water consumed, more toiletries consumed, more linens to clean, more people in the "free" breakfast buffet, and so on. It takes what was a (slightly) profitable room and turns it into a money loser. The hotel in question pulled inventory out of priceline for precisely this reason---they couldn't make it profitable.
*** This post was edited by Brian Noble 4/16/2004 12:09:17 PM ***

The more I read people complain about CF passholders (more specifically CP passholders) not getting into Geauga Lake for free, the more I have these comments:

1) Would you have gone to GL in the first place this season as a paying customer? Not as a SF passholder but as a paying customer. If you answer no, then you only are looking for something for nothing. You just want something that was not guaranteed to you in the first place as some sort of reward for Cedar Fair purchasing the park while you were lucky enough to purchase a pass.

2) In conjunction with 2, it undermines future efforts by the park to set up a system where people will have to pay for a combo pass to both GL and CP. If CP passholders are given a freebie now, no matter how people try to justify it by saying it would be "goodwill", it will be twice as tough to get them to pay down the road.

3) They probably want to get an accurate representation of the core audience of the park and what type of people really appreciate being there. Get back to the foundation and build from there instead of letting everyone in at the top floor.

If Cedar Fair can successfully retool GL at the ground level and make people want to spend their money at the park (re: Service etc.) instead of opening the flood gates and hoping that people will spend their money because they got in free, then they will have succeeded.

It is a tough concept to understand from the enthusiast side of things but giving too much stuff away for nothing can come back and bite you in the butt.

Give Eric a gold star!

The real head count last year was 1.3 million, not whatever the trade rags estimated. I know this because it came from the mouth of a Six Flags PR person (different park). It was a dismal failure. There is no question in my mind that Cedar Fair can match or exceed that number. They'll make OK money on it because they're not feeding whales and zebras year-round. They're taking a conservative approach to all pricing and not setting any precedents that will be hard to change next year.

Mark my words... there will be add-on tickets or passes in '05. In the mean time, let it ride, gauge interest in the park, measure revenue and expenses.

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Jeff - Webmaster - GTTP - My Blog
Blogs, photo albums - CampusFish
What time does the water show start?

This might sound stupid however but I wonder if the park would consider selling a single park season pass in 2005 for just GL alone, or a chain pass for the normal $99 price. Having the price jump $40 will be hard for some pass holders to swallow even with the addmittence to CP. Espeically if its for a parent wanted to use the park as a babysitter service(however I do not agree with). This thought process would probably cause some problems, with people trying to use a GL only pass at CP, but I think at least for a few seasons to let GL pass holders get used to the higher cost it could be something to look at.

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GL rides sup 2004
"The Fun is Back!"

SFWoA 'gave away the gate', hopeing to boost in-park spending, which pretty much failed. The main reason it failed is simple, SF offered crappy products(ex: food) for a high price. Why would someone pay $9 for a semi warm burger, cold fires and a drink? lol

Now, if CF offers anything close to what CP has, as far as food goes, the in-park spending to could skyrocket from the past few years. I don't expect CF to 'give away the gate' at GL, but I would like to see some discouts floating around, maybe a buy one get one at half price tickets during May, June, Sept, and Oct., or even a decent discount, like the $10-$15 off with a pepsi can deal offered by CP. With the GL or CP season pass holders, they should offer some kind of dicounted ticket to enter the other park this year.

Geauga Lake was a profitable park for many years, with about 1 to 1.5 million in attendance. The reason Six Flags failed is because they gave away an entire second park in the marine life park. They had to pay for the animal care, trainer's wages and infrastructure without making a dime on admission. It was SFWoA that failed, not the original Geauga Lake.

There is no reason why the new Geauga Lake can't be very successful. The admission price is a good value, the season pass price is a bargain, if the price of food comes down to the Cedar Point price structure people will buy food. GL has a ride package now that is many times better than what they had before Premier Parks bought a profitable park. Coupled with increased entertainment and reasonable prices, this park will do well in my opinion.

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I'd rather be in my boat with a drink on the rocks,
than in the drink with a boat on the rocks.

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3) They probably want to get an accurate representation of the core audience of the park and what type of people really appreciate being there. Get back to the foundation and build from there instead of letting everyone in at the top floor

In the mean time, let it ride, gauge interest in the park, measure revenue and expenses.

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You guys finally hit the nail on the head. These are the only explanations that make any sense. Cedar Fair is going to need a little time to make sure the park is up to their standards before they flood it with CP pass holders. As stated above, CP needs to establish a base to determine their marketing strategy. If you can't measure it, you can't manage it. This is going to be a tough enough challenge because of the proximity of the two parks. Is an increase in attendance at one park at the expense of the other one?

I think that next year a CP combo pass will get you into both parks. It's only a ten dollar difference right now ( CP upgrade is 49 and a GL pass is 59).

It's too hard to predict attendance because of weather and other factors. However, if CF does not use any incentives through the season to promote GL, I think they will have a hard time meeting last years attendance number. That doesn't neccesarily mean they won't be more profitable.
*** This post was edited by WickedMister 4/16/2004 9:52:33 PM ***