Capacity - It's great, but what could be improved?

I'm a capacity lover of sorts, I'll tell you that. And Cedar Point has some of the best operations in general of any park in the USA, and I've visited all the CF parks and most of the SF parks.

But sometimes I see reports from other parks like Europa of dispatch times under 1 minute, consistently. See this thread:

http://forum.nolimits-exchange.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=1988

Dispatch times (roughly estimated):-

-Silverstar: ~40-50 sec

- Blue Fire: ~35-40 sec.

- Eurosat: ~25-30 sec. (!)

- Euro-MIR: ~30-40 sec.

I've seen Raptor Power Hour and Kings Island's incredible Banshee crew. And Gatekeeper this year is pretty awesome too. But as great as Cedar Point is, it seems like some parks can do a bit better.

Also, I've heard Europa Park does not have any sort of virtual queue/line skipping system, which contributes to the standby line moving quicker.

What rides at CP could operate at higher capacity?

• Maverick - They always wait till the second train is already accelerating the launch tunnel to dispatch the trains in the station. My friend claims that they used to do so when the second train was in the second corkscrew. (Shouldn't dispatch be a bit before the launch tunnel? By the time the dispatched first train would hit the LSMs, the block would be clear.)
• Blue Streak - This is the fault of this ride's ratchet bars and seatbelts. Before it had a fully automated control system, it was NOT ALLOWED TO STACK THE SECOND TRAIN, if what I've heard is correct (the automatic controls are older than ME, so I never witnessed this.) Much like some Arrows, the ride would have to be reset by maintenance if it stacked. The ride had to dispatch quick, a bell rang as the train hit the turnaround, and the buzz bars were sometimes checked as the train started to move. Now, the ride almost always stacks.
• Iron Dragon - Are you kidding me? The third train was removed allegedly because people were worried about being "rushed on." AFAIK, this is because stacking on the second lift required a manual reset. COME ON. There's a reason you're "rushed on" - it's so you don't have to wait in line! (CCMR appeared to be running 2 of its 3 trains on this past (insanely busy) Sunday, and considering I've seen CCMR briefly stack on the second lift a few times in the past, I can only assume this is the case for CCMR too. But I can't confirm this - I didn't actually ride CCMR.)

I'm sure I could name a few others, but these are ones that come to mind.

Any thoughts?

Any ride with a storage bin. Get rid of them and magically, capacity increases. It also depends on the crew and how fast they hustle.

GigaG said:

• Maverick - They always wait till the second train is already accelerating the launch tunnel to dispatch the trains in the station. My friend claims that they used to do so when the second train was in the second corkscrew. (Shouldn't dispatch be a bit before the launch tunnel? By the time the dispatched first train would hit the LSMs, the block would be clear.)
  

I am far from being a voice of authority on this, but I was under the impression that the first block is lift hill to the brake block prior to the tunnel launch. Assuming this is true, the second train cannot even move to the lift until the first train has passed from the brake block and onto the tunnel launch.

That said, I'm disappointed that the second train doesn't seem to be launched as soon as it can with any consistency. When that does occur, there's a "near miss" as the first train passes beneath the first drop. The majority of the time, the second train isn't launched as soon as it can be, and is typically a few seconds late. So my question to any Maverick ops would be: is the launch of the second train manual or automatic? If automatic, why isn't there any consistency?

First thing you stated.

No Power Hours, ever. NEVER. I'm highly against this practice. Speed does not lead to efficiency, nor does speed promote absolute safety. Mistakes and discrepancies should never exist when it comes to ride safety.

Now for discussion:

Maverick. The tunnel launch starts with eddy current brakes. This then goes to the LSM launch, which is actually a hill. So think if the launch fails, the train goes back slowly to the eddy current brakes to restart the tunnel launch. So if the second train is launched before the first clears the tunnel and fails..What's to prevent a collision? Until the tunnel is cleared by the train, the second will not advance. If you're on the second train you can even hear the launch go, and then the second train is automatically dispatched to the lift hill.

Blue Streak. Unfortunately between bins & a short ride cycle, it's never going to not stack. By the time the train is parked the ride is already up most of the lift or so, which takes about 50 seconds, for a ride that all together takes 1m50s. It's not easy to hit capacity on this ride, bins/gates/guests cause this slowdown, all of which weren't things that the ride had to deal with when originally built (well aside from Guests).

Iron Dragon's train was removed because of this reset. If the blocks stack, an op has to leave the station, go down to the second lift out in the middle of the ride, and reset the block with the op in controls. It was a constant nuisance, as now you have one less op on the station, which means their job is now performed by one person instead of two. Lastly, for what I'd believe, considering it's train was removed the same time as Corkscrews. Ours was removed to hit capacity with two train op better, which was the case for my ride. Decreased ridership didn't warrant moving three trains that also had issues with setting up occasionally. Remove the setup and push out two trains easier worked on one, I'm not surprised if it worked on the other.

Lastly, I'm all for safe efficient ride operations, and Cedar Point has a great team in place to do this. IROC did ruin some things, but overall the parks know what they need to do. They have the team in place, all the resources at their disposal, and have the mindset of preserving safety and increasing ridership as best as possible. What we say is either moot, or they already know.

In the past, Maverick was able to dispatch the next train onto the lift when the train ahead of it was passing through the second corkscrew. The computer would then verify that the brakes prior to the tunnel launch were cleared before sending the train over the lift. See reference post here.

If they did change it to only dispatch after the tunnel brakes are cleared, that would be unfortunate.

Why is Valravyn consistently stacking, it seems as if the MCBR is almost unnecessary.
Is it design/ lack of unload station/ slower crew?

I think it's an example of theoretical/design capacity being optimistic compared to realized capacity, just as seems to be common with flyers. In other words, the crew is slower than they could be.

Given the train layout, I would guess that moving across a row of people to check restraints isn't as ergonomically-friendly as moving down a train to check restraints. Maybe because they're moving side-to-side, rather than forward?

Chuck Wagon said:

In the past, Maverick was able to dispatch the next train onto the lift when the train ahead of it was passing through the second corkscrew. The computer would then verify that the brakes prior to the tunnel launch were cleared before sending the train over the lift. See reference post here.

If they did change it to only dispatch after the tunnel brakes are cleared, that would be unfortunate.

That's what I've heard. I've heard that Maverick is able to dispatch with the first block occupied, but will roll back once it passes a certain point on the lift. Perhaps they give it a few more seconds to avoid an accidental rollback? I've also heard the second train start IS a manual dispatch, don't quote me though. (I'm surprised that it doesn't have more automation, honestly.)

Iron Dragon's train was NOT removed at the same time as Corkscrew. ID's train was removed around 2013-14, Corkscrew's train was removed probably around 2011-12. Not sure, but a while before ID's was. I can see for Corkscrew - it's such a short ride that you're almost guaranteed to stack. ID is a much longer ride. Unfortunately, it's length falls between "insanely fast operations required with 3 trains" and "waiting for the next train with 2 trains." Corkscrew is such a short ride that I'm surprised it was designed to run 3 trains at once.

Magnum's a good compromise between "stackability" and "required fast dispatch" for Arrows. It can stack and easily is reset (I always hear "releasing safeties in 3,2,1" after a stack, so it doesn't require somebody to go out to the brakes), but stacking on the safeties is so unpleasant for the GP that there is a good reason for the ride ops to move fast to avoid giving their ride a bad reputation.

As for "power hours", I can see why people don't like them, but the one power hour I saw was on Raptor from 10-11pm with next to nobody in line. It was quite a sight, and they weren't cutting corners. They didn't just tap the restraint without pulling up at all., they were fully checking, and most of the seats they checked were empty. The ride op announced in the mic "Dang it, we stacked" when they stacked ONE TRAIN behind the station. They were definitely butting up against Raptor's maximum theoretical capacity.

Corkscrew's was removed 2011. Trust me, that fact I know for certain ;)

Same as Iron Dragon. It's third train never made it to Opening Day.

See: https://pointbuzz.com/Forums/Topic/corkscrew-and-iron-dragon-trains

Also, with old style operations (like the Arrow Dance) and with a relay based system & less safety checks. Three trains back when it came out were easily possible. Now with a modern PLC, parking, and policies, it slows down operations to where two trains is more feasible and efficient than three.

Also, you may like power hours because there isn't a line. However I'd rather have guaranteed safety than be on a ride quicker. Speed does not ever equate to safety. What if a seatbelt is missed during a power hour? What if a few more seconds looking at a rider would have deemed they didn't fit the ride policy? I don't deal with uncertainties in this area. Safety is key, always.

^I could have sworn ID had 3 trains in 2012 and 2013. Hmm...

Also, I was trying to say "they were doing power hour on partially loaded trains." So they could have gone a bit faster than if it was a crowded day.

BTW, does anybody know when "power hours" tend to happen? Do they happen at random or is there a regular time the crews tend to do it on certain rides?

Yeah, I understand modern safety procedures, but sometimes its overkill, especially when rides like Phoenix at Knoebels run with buzz bars while CP has to bubble-wrap Blue Streak, for lack of a better term. We shouldn't be downgrading capacity when rides were perfectly safe 30 years ago. For example, why do newer PLCs take longer to park? What's unsafe about how they were designed to park? (Sorry for sounding rantish, I'm kind of rushing this post.)

^"Power Hours" can happen at any given time of the day, although they are most commonly found towards the end of the night.

Some things are overdone yes, I'll agree there. That's usually the fault of IROC. See Corkscrew. Why an OP has to stand on the dot behind a metal railing by an elevator, but can't stand next to a bin or anywhere behind the red line..who knows. Or why they have to check from front to back, who knows. There's some areas for improvement always, but they won't yield substantial results, maybe just a few more trains per day (so we're talking maybe 100-200 people more).

30 years ago, PLCs weren't really around. These were relay systems or very manual rides with manual braking (see Gemini as a prime example). With computer systems there's checks and crosschecks. if one sensor reads something different, it's a fault. Everything has to correlate to where it should be, everytime, always. That's what guarantees safety.

Blue Streak also isn't bubble wrapped. If ratcheting lapbars, seat dividers, and head rests on freshly refurbished trains is bubble wrap, then alot of parks are guilty here.

^That's true, a lot of parks are guilty of bubble-wrapping. Blue Streak originally had none of what you mentioned, in addition to no seatbelts. Knoebels' Phoenix still runs this way, AFAIK. Just a buzz bar. The way it was designed to run.

About IROC, I thought IROC let up on its severity... I was under the impression it wasn't really a factor anymore.

I think the Maverick dispatch on the second train is manual also. I usually have lunch on the picnic tables outside the Frontier Inn. You can hear the launch out of the tunnel. The launch to the lift hill is very inconsistent with that. Sometimes I see the second train moving as the first train enters the tunnel. Other times it is after the first train is out the tunnel. If it was automated, it would be more consistent.

Here's a few questions for the group.
Why does anyone here care about capacity or stacking? It's a serious question, too, I really want to know.
Is it because you just get impatient for your next ride and think if what amounts to an additional cycle or two per hour that it will make a difference in your day? Do you think you may be in a minority with such concerns compared to, say, the day trippers?

Why is it important for you to analyze the difference between theoretical, or promised capacity and what is actual day-to-day reality?
Why do most trip reports here seem to include nothing but information about wait times on each and every ride on that particular given day? Really, it's pretty much useless information to post as an afterthought, and it's helping no one.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, I assure you. I know everyone here is a coaster/ride enthusiast and I am as well. And nothing is more disheartening to me than attending a park and finding single train operation everywhere on a busy day, so I get that. But the general consensus here seems to be that CP operates to full capacity on most days and the crews are great. So,.....

I was at Kings Island yesterday with a friend from out of state who is a person that I consider to be well-informed, educated, mature, and sensible. While waiting for Diamondback our discussion turned to those who whine and complain about stacking and it had us shaking our heads. Delays happened while we were there, too. A couple of times all three trains were parked. What was the cause? Let's see. More than once a train was kept from leaving because the crew tried to accommodate a rider of larger proportions. Then there was a wheelchair and then a lady with a cane. Once someone puked and a train was washed and sent out empty. Once a rider held up things because they had a loose article that had slipped by and were made to use the bin.
Yes, I observed stacking. But it wasn't the fault of a lazy, uncaring crew (who, btw, were working in the heat) or a design flaw in the blocking of the ride.
Once over at The Beast it happened badly and guess who was to blame? It was us and a twisted seatbelt caught in the retract mechanism as well as someone (me) who accidentally sat down on one of the female ends of the belt and used my seat mate's instead leaving none for him. It was a cluster there for a sec. Oops. Sorry, folks.

I know capacity is a pride point for the crews and smooth, event-free dispatches is a goal.
And please, I'm not looking for more anecdotal evidence of stacking. I'm aware that it happens. But why is everyone here so incessantly butt-hurt about it if it does? And why is there yet another topic to discuss CP's apparent short coming in this department?

Thanks.

I'm not really concerned one way or another about stacking, I'll rarely go on any ride at CP with more than a 20 minute wait.
However, given the fact that countdown clocks are being put in the stations it clearly is more of a concern than to just some enthusiasts. The general public is being made blatantly aware that there is timing involved.

I'm not sure a countdown clock is a noticeable concern to the GP. Now, an electric shock to the crew if they miss? That would be a show everyone would notice.

No, that's likely the company's way of attaching a number to the crew's results. Here's where you can do better, here's where you're failing, here's where you get written up, here's where we fire you.
(Sorry, I worked in a corporate service department my whole life...)

A countdown clock for judging the crews performance would not be placed in view of the general public. As in the case of Valravyn it's a big, bright, easily viewable and understandable screen showing time and seats to be locked, most easily viewed by the guests in the train not by staff.

Perhaps it's there to kindly encourage guests to hurry up and help the crew, without the crew sounding pushy.

I'm with MAC here.

XS NightClub said:

I'm not really concerned one way or another about stacking, I'll rarely go on any ride at CP with more than a 20 minute wait.

Curiously, a lot of people I work with consider it an honor to go to SFGAm with me. Even after I tell them I don't wait more than 20 minutes for a ride, so they're probably not going to get to ride a roller coaster.

I was there Saturday last and my companion, who has been extraordinarily kind to me over the years, wanted to ride Justice League, so I did suspend the 20 minute rule for him.

A countdown clock for judging the crews performance would not be placed in view of the general public.

Generally speaking, though. doesn't that countdown clock have to be placed in view of the general public so that the ride crew can see it? They're all on the ride platform.

RCMAC said:

Here's a few questions for the group.
Why does anyone here care about capacity or stacking?

While not obsessed with capacity, I do notice when things are not running right. For me it is all about efficiency. I try to do things in the most efficient manner possible whether it be driving from point A to B or walking around an amusement park. I even pull the restraint down and buckle the seatbelt if no one is sitting next to me because it speeds things up. Everyone has a quirk - I guess that is mine.

And I have been known to scream at people while driving when the slowdown to look at an accident on the other side of a highway. Granted they cannot hear me but why do they feel the need to slow down or even stop? There is nothing that they can do on this side of the highway so just keep moving.