"America Rocks" - OUCH!

Yesterday afternoon, three of us popped into the Red Garter Saloon to see the America Rocks show. I am now prepared to offer the following warning:

The show is decent, certainly on par with any Cedar Point Live-E show. There is quite a bit of talent playing in the show, and it benefits greatly from the return of LIVE MUSIC.

But the show is probably best enjoyed from the far side of the midway. From my table in the front of the room, the show was virtually inaudible, because it was TOO DAMN LOUD. No, this is not Dave whining because he's getting old. This is Dave whining because he used to be an audio engineer doing live-performance audio for a radio station, who thinks whoever was running sound in that theater must have been totally deaf. Or at least will be shortly given the sheer volume of the show.

The show was decent, and includes a bit that is...umm...surprising, to say the least. But the power amps are running past the point of audible clipping, the vocals are overloaded beyond the point of distortion (in fact, one of the mics was ringing), and the amplification of the drum kit, bass guitar and saxophone almost completely drown out the keyboards, acoustic guitar and vocals. The show desperately needs an engineer who understands that the "best mix" isn't simply the mix that provides maximum volume without feedback.

There is WAY too much sound in that tiny little theater. The show is actually painful to listen to. And it's a terrible shame. Those performers deserve better than that.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.
*** This post was edited by RideMan 5/12/2003 9:35:15 AM ***

I think I'll stay away from this show for a few weeks untill they get it all worked out. I used to do sound for just about everything at school from choir to orchestra. Also have being in a band and setting up the board and such. I know sound...and that would just tick me off. LoL. Thanks for the warning Dave.

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AKA...Somewhatchewy, Joseph the White.
If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?

The problems must have been caused by whoever was running the audio on Sun. I saw part of the show Fri. and the audio was fine, nice and clear, with no clipping. I hope the responsible person gets some "re-education" into how the audio should be set.

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Florida may have Disneyworld and Key West,
but Ohio has Cedar Point and Put-In-Bay.
It's great to live in Ohio!
*** This post was edited by Pete 5/12/2003 9:49:19 AM ***

Yeah, I might chalk it up to inexperience the first week.

He's probably a DJ who doesn't understand the point of VU meters and is used to ridiculous processing and compression for radio that corrects such laziness.

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Jeff
Webmaster/GTTP - Sillynonsense.com
"Pray that your country undergoes recovery!" - KMFDM

I hope you're right...

It would be easy enough to fix. Clearly, the vocal mics (SM-58's mounted on wireless transmitters) were set for the maximum level that would allow them not to ring. All they need to do is start with that and re-balance the mix to put the vocals out front where they belong, with acoustic guitar (when used), keyboards, and electric guitar just behind that, other instruments even further back in the mix, remembering to compensate for the fact that this is live sound, and the drum kit, saxophone, and bass guitar are all acoustic instruments. It isn't rocket science, but VU meters and clip inidcators are there for a reason... :)

Personally, I don't understand why so many places have such bad sound. I suspect it's because so many people don't know what good sound sounds like. Hint: Start by turning off the LOUDNESS switch if you really want your music loud...!

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I am going to weigh in on this sound issue. First up, yes it was the first full weekend of operation on the show, secondly, the sound engineer is the same from last season, third, the Red Garter is a very difficult space in which to do sound.

The Garter is in a unique sound situation, first the sound in this space is difficult to control, most of the musicians (though they appear to have amplification, it is mostly there to quell the musicians fears that they are not heard in the house) just play louder and louder through the course of the first few weeks. The staff at the park tries very hard to keep this under control, but until their chops get worked in the sound varies on a show to show basis, even song to song in the very early parts of the summer.

Second, weather is something that also greatly influences the sound at the Garter, with two huge doors open to the outside, humidity affects the way the sound travels in this space. Yesterday was a beautiful day (at least early in the day) and with low humidity the sound is much more present. Not that this can be the excuse for the show being loud, it does contribute to feedback from happening from time to time.

As far as simply doing a re-balance, as much as that would be easily done in most situations, doing so here would be difficult. First off each of the non-acoustic instruments have monitors on stage, so each musician can hear themselves, when the sound changes in the room, they tend to turn themselves up so they can hear, thus the loud monitor sound on the stage bleeds through to the vocal mics producing a sound that is exactly like you heard yesterday.

With a week of ringing out the system with varing crowd sizes and weather changes, everything usually falls into place. The staff at Cedar Point has been producing shows in the Garter for years, and also know that the first week is for ringing the show out. Next time early in the season don't sit so close to the stage, and you won't have as many problems.

As to why I know this, I have a long history with that theatre, including several years running sound there. Including back in the days where the technicians was located back stage.

I don't disagree with your points, but when you start clipping and getting distortion, there is no excuse to allow it to continue.

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Jeff
Webmaster/GTTP - Sillynonsense.com
"Pray that your country undergoes recovery!" - KMFDM

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Yeah, I might chalk it up to inexperience the first week.

He's probably a DJ who doesn't understand the point of VU meters and is used to ridiculous processing and compression for radio that corrects such laziness.

Actually, I saw the show this weekend and the sound guy was the same guy from last year. I think he was there all season last year. I don't think experience was the issue.

I have some friends in Live E. and they said that the guy at the Red Garter was the same guy that won the IAAPA award for best technician last year.

That said, I should think that he would be extremely insulted to be called a second rate DJ.

I have also overheard some people in Live E. talk about the band needing to play quieter before. Maybe they were just playing too loud that day.

I saw it on Saturday and it was loud but not too loud.

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*** This post was edited by Jack Lewis 5/12/2003 7:44:58 PM ***

Nobody said he was a DJ, that was just speculation. Besides, it's show business. If you can't take criticism, you don't belong in the business (coming from someone who once lived in that profession).

There's a difference between loud and overloading your equipment, which is what Dave was talking about.

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Jeff
Webmaster/GTTP - Sillynonsense.com
"Pray that your country undergoes recovery!" - KMFDM

There is the issue of overloading the equipment, there is also the issue of overloading the *room*. I'm afraid that show did a little of both.

I hope it's because the show just opened. I mean, I think I was there for the second show of the day, on its third day of operation.

A thought...I wonder if the sound man was mixing through headphones. It might have sounded good that way, and it wouldn't be obvious that the sound level is knocking people's drinks over... :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

omg people.. stop your *****ing.. jeez.. its the beginning of the season and things have to be worked out. and since you all seem to know so much about everything, then why dont you go apply for the job and do it yourself? you people have absolutely no lives what so ever. especially the morons who stand out in the rain and wind and cold swearing up and down that there is more that just the weather behind most of the rides being down. i went up and asked if dragster was going to open and the guy explained to me that is was weather. i was cool with that. but there were these guys in the line who thought there was some sort of conspiracy going on. get a friggin life people! you dont like it, dont go. oh my that wall is hideous... they are only running three trains.. boo hoo

No, They're running 5 trains now. ;)... But really, calm down. Why do you think that you can stop everybodies *****ing when they (or rather - we) have been doing this same crap with a slightly different topic since I got here. At least it isn't ALWAYS the same thing...

I play in a band and running mixers and the whole deal to me isn't all too hard, but it does take some time to get used to and learn the equipment. I'm sure whoever is running things will be on top of things soon enough.

Cram it up your pie hole, Jay. RideMan and I have probably been around said equipment a lot longer than you or the guy running the show. Maybe you need to get the life... we're just constructively criticizing a place we enjoy hanging out, in hopes they get better.

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Jeff
Webmaster/GTTP - Sillynonsense.com
"Pray that your country undergoes recovery!" - KMFDM

It must have been the show you where at, it was just fine when we watched the show on Sunday, and I also seen part of it on sat. an it was just fine.

Decibels: Thunder

110

Threshold of pain

120

Jet airplane, 100' away

140

Take it from a DJ, who uses PA systems utilizing speakers that pound out 132dB for hours at a time (and continues to hear the damage for days at a time), when if a sound technician tells you it's too loud, you don't argue. Point being that if anyone knows what your susposed to be hearing, it's a audio engineer, which *clearly* doesn't make you an expert around here anymore.

When you know what you're talking about, you have a right to complain.
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Jes
Jes's Roller Coasters DJ Jes
Six Flags Worlds Of Adventure Ride-Ops Crew 2002-2003! Have fun trying to find me!

I was at the 3pm Sunday show (sitting right behind the dude they hauled on stage) and did notice some slight feedback problems during one of the songs.

I still thought they did a great job and any problems were probably not noticed by un trained ears.

MrScott

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"If we go any faster, she'll blow apart for sure!"

I was up stairs on the side of the stage and the show sounded great. I love singing Cleveland rocks with all the Mich. people in the crowd.

Jes, I would have loved to have a db meter in there for that show...

I did think it kinda cool that the speakers were able to handle the kind of pubnishment they were getting. A far cry from the ones they had in the Power Tower queue that were completely blown after three days of operation...!

Jeff, while it's true that I've been running sound equipment literally forever, in all fairness I should point out that when I was doing performance mixes I was essentially a live recording engineer, it wasn't for live sound. Still, some of the results have survived on the WCBE fund-raising compilation discs... :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.
(edit: I should learn to finish before clicking "post")
*** This post was edited by RideMan 5/14/2003 10:59:58 AM ***

I am not sure about the measured sound level in the Garter but I have been in there when the entertainment has been painfully loud. I just get my food or beverage and run!

While the subject is sound, yesterday in the station for Raptor the speakers were giving an annoyingly high pitched noise.

While walking up the queue stairs, my friend handed me her disposable camera to put in my pocket. When we got to one of the final landings, she asked me if the flash was still turned on. Lo-and-behold, it was the speakers. Not quite ear-piercing, but annoying none-the-less.

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Tommy Penner - YoYoBaybeeMan
The Matrix: Reloaded and Cedar Point in the same week - Sensory Overload!